Pope planning 'radical' changes to Irish Catholic Church
Set to slash number of dioceses, force bishops to retire?
Published Sunday, August 14, 2011, 7:51 AM
Updated Monday, August 15, 2011, 10:05 AM
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Archbishop of Armagh Cardinal Sean Brady
Pope Benedict is said to be planning some "dramatic" changes for the Irish Church, according to the influential Irish Catholic newspaper columnist David Quinn and leading Irish theologian Father Vincent Twomey.
Changes could include significantly reducing the number of dioceses and replacing most of the current bishops, reports the Irish Examiner.
Founder of the Catholic Iona Institute David Quinn reported in the Irish Catholic that "rumours" are circulating in Rome that the Vatican is planning a "radical restructuring" of the hierarchy in response to the sex-abuse scandal.
He said "we should hope and pray" that the Vatican follows through, as an upheaval is needed if the Church in Ireland is to have any hope of recovery.
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Quinn stated that the next appointment to Archbishop of Armagh, and essentially head of the church in Ireland, is critical. He called for a new generation of leaders, recalling that Pope John Paul 11 was only 43 when he took over as Archbishop of Krakow.
He said current the incumbent in Armagh, Cardinal Sean Brady, has been deeply compromised because of the pedophile scandal.
He wrote: “The crucial appointment would, of course, be to Armagh. Unfortunately Cardinal Brady has lost an enormous amount of public credibility because of his involvement in the Fr Brendan Smith case as a young priest in the 1970s. His talk of being 'a wounded healer' simply doesn't wash.
“Who would replace him? The temptation will be to appoint someone currently in their 60s, but if the best candidate cannot be found from among this age group the Vatican should consider skipping a generation, and seeking out someone in their late 40s or early 50s.
"The usual argument against doing this is that such a person will then be in office for too long. In normal circumstances that argument would wash. But we are in the middle of extraordinary circumstances and it is absolutely vital that the next Archbishop of Armagh is someone who inspires public confidence. It is worth keeping in mind also that Pope John Paul was made Archbishop of Krakow when he was only 43, and was elected Pope at the age of 58, which is young given that there is no retirement age for a Pope. So it can be done.”
Theologian and former student of Pope Benedict XVI, Fr Vincent Twomey, emeritus professor of moral theology at Maynooth seminary, has also suggested changes, saying that 26 dioceses is too many for such a small Catholic population.
"At the very most, 12 dioceses would be sufficient in Ireland, including a reduction of the size of the Archdiocese of Dublin to the present county boundaries," he has said.
Twomey has also suggested that every Irish bishop appointed before 2003 should resign, claiming that the Church in Ireland has been without any effective leadership for the last 15 years.
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eiriamach | Sep 17, 2011, 01:42 PM EDT
Jacersagain, WOW! I counted about 15 com boxes you've filled up on this page. Someone arriving here could not possibly figure out what the points in discussion were, and I do not have the energy to read through and try to pull us back to the issues, which were NOT, btw, "women priests." So I will simply update my closing remark about reform on the horizon. According to Rbt McClory's Sep. 15 article at the National Catholic Reporter online, "US priests form new national association," a new Association of U.S. priests has sprung up in emulation of the Association of Catholic Priests of Ireland. It began at "a retreat at Chicago's St. Mary of the Lake Seminary in Mundelein, Ill., in late August." The group "sent a letter to NY Archbishop Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. bishops' conference, notifying him of the group's existence as a 'free association of priests provided by Canons 215, 278.1 and 299.'" The priests who organized it responded to a survey sent by peace-activist Fr. Bernard Survil: "the most favored objective called for an association dedicated to 'full implementation of the vision and teachings of the Second Vatican Council with special emphasis on the primacy of the individual conscience, the status and participation of all the baptized, and the task of establishing a church where all believers will be treated as equals.'" He who saves has touched the humanity of these men, and the Holy Spirit seems to be at work again--after a lengthy hiatus--in the RCC. If there are any laity remaining, perhaps we will see long-needed change. If not, RCC will survive only as a custodian of much of the world's great architecture, paintings and sculpture, manuscripts-- a veritable museum / library, but no longer a house of God.
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jacersagain | Sep 13, 2011, 07:27 PM EDT
(...more) Now I readily admit I’m not a scholar of religious matters but at least even as an ordinary man I can see the simple veracity of the RCC’s stance on critical Jesus-laid-down aspects. I’d say even normal human common sense would tell you that the RCC, with its Christ-given spiritual remit, is incapable of assenting to present-day popular mores. It simply doesn’t have spiritual authority from Christ to do so and it always maintains that, despite what we as modern equality-minded humans might like. I think the Anglican Church at heart knows that too, knows that it failed to stand up to those within it who have caused such disagreements, like King Henry 8th, by pushing selfish human agenda - like acceptance of homosexuality and women priests - and is sadly realising those mistakes. We might ask "What would Jesus say?" - Well, we already know that through Sacred Tradition and our Sacred Bible and, if we are true Christian believers, we can’t change any of that. It is so pure it doesn’t need changing; so who are we, with our modern ‘scholarly’ know-it-all, media-fed, media-led ‘likes’, to challenge the eternity of the teachings and examples of the Son of God? Pope Benedict and his fellow ecumenists know better about that and he tries his best; God be with him in his ecumenical endeavours and radical changes for the good of Christ’s Church.
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jacersagain | Sep 13, 2011, 07:22 PM EDT
@eiriamach - re Pope Benedict and ecumenism: my post of Aug 18, 07.52 contains complete indisputable historical facts, so again I am surprised you still see the Papacy as a barrier to ecumenism when the Pope has factually shown himself to be at the coalface of it on behalf of and in belief of the Sacred Heart of Jesus that he is so devoted to. I acknowledge yr points about the meetings between A/bishop Ramsey & Popes Paul VI and John Paul II - I remember them well, so high were the expectations that a breakthrough for re-unification was on the cards. It was a huge disappointment for me and billions of others when both churches said a few specific difficulties remained. Mind you, it wasn’t for lack of effort by the leaders and their specialist theologians searching for a way forward to the unity that both churches deserve. Some critical aspects you have correctly mentioned - homosexuality, women priests inter alia. (More...)
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jacersagain | Sep 13, 2011, 06:21 PM EDT
Apologies to eiriamach and JuneAnnette – I’ve been away and too busy on other matters in recent weeks to engage w/ any ICentral posts or topics. Sorry too for this late response - clearly in my absence the topic has gone stale for now (perhaps thankfully!) But I would say to JA that my honest belief is that you are sadly brainwashed, with a mentor looking over your shoulder, instructing you on what to post (making you a stooge). Your posts are, to my mind, a waste of time because they are so superfluous and over-laden with quotes from various selective sources, always presented out of context to suit the agenda you and your mentor choose to pursue (e.g. hatred of the RCC, encouraging dissenters from it, just as Satan always does every second of every day and night). Sorry JA - and I really am - but yr posts don’t wash with me and I sincerely pray for the day that you wake up out of yr brainwashed state and find the same freedom I have found (re-discovered, actually) in the Sacraments of Christ through RCC, despite its human faults - and yes, they are many and thorny, even for me - but they are still completely insufficient for me to recognise the RCC as anything but the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Jesus founded and which He upholds against all attacks through His Eternal Presence in its Tabernacles and in those of us who eat His Body and drink His Blood. The intensity of the RCC’s spiritual Holiness, the intensity of its good priests work and superb devoted laity world-wide far outweigh its human faults and satanic attacks within and upon it from outside of it. I urge you to re-discover the truth of that. (PS – loved yr humorous LOVE LOVE post... made me have right good chuckle; unfortunately it once again showed how wrongly you portray things).
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jacersagain | Aug 27, 2011, 10:16 AM EDT
Hmmm... my ecumenical subject posts didn't make it online. I don't have a copy of what I posted but what I will say now is that those who think the RCC is a stumbling block to full ecumenism should perhaps see that it cannot change what it doesn't have spiritual authority to change.
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jacersagain | Aug 26, 2011, 11:14 PM EDT
(...more) One small note: I learned that I was mistaken in believing Mary was the Apostle of the Apostles; she was appointed by Christ to be an Apostle TO the Apostles on that famous Resurrection morning. In other words, she was a messenger. It is easy to forget that that is what ‘Apostle’ means – a messenger. Such is what all the original Apostles were appointed to be – messengers of Christ’s Word. They did that so successfully in their time that now the twelve are numbered over a billion today. Who are we of today, us smarty-pants, to challenge their delivery of the message, their ministry and the success of their successors through the centuries since? – All of it happened without the interference of a woman for God’s sake. Did Christ’s mother Mary interfere? No, she didn’t. Jesus’ women tended to His and His ministers’ needs; they did not clamour for equality with His chosen few men. They had more sense and respect than women of today, I think. I will now, under the comfort of Jesus’ love for you, eiriamach, for His love forgiving love and JuneAnnette and her mentor, for and everybody and with the strength of the guidance of His Holy Spirit, unafraid and without , pick up on yr ecumenical topic points... (I think I will do this woefully...)
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jacersagain | Aug 26, 2011, 11:07 PM EDT
(...more) One may argue that Christ did not appoint women to be ministers of His Word because the social mores of His time didn’t allow it (I don’t think any priests of the time, like Pharisees, were women) but that times and society have changed since and so should the modern Church’s stance on this issue. There was a time I would have agreed women priests, believing in Mary Magdalene to be the ‘Apostle of the Apostles’... possibly even the first real Christian ‘pope’ instead of it being Peter. My thinking was: If Mary was the Apostle of the Apostles, then Mary, a woman, might well have been the perfect example that the RCC might have chosen for a reason to allow women to be ordained as priests. However, I visited the South of France, where, not far from Marseilles, Mary Magdalene lived out the rest of her life as a hermit in an area now called Sainte Baume and learned much more about her there amongst the locals than anything the RCC has given me. When I went there, I expected something unusual but I came away shocked and beautifully awed. I encourage everyone, esp you, eiriamach, with your thirst for knowledge, to travel to hills of Sainte Baume if you can, to see and learn for yourself what I witnessed and learned. The experience left me in no doubt as to why I now see the RCC’s position on women priests for what it is. As I now see the RCC’s stance, I cannot fault it. (more...)
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jacersagain | Aug 26, 2011, 11:06 PM EDT
More... In short, women were not called upon by Jesus to be ministers of His Church. On this historical account, the Church feels it does not have the authority to do what Jesus didn’t do. I think it’s pointless to argue a case for women priests when the Church feels so bereft of authority from Christ on the matter. Or, one might ask, as I did for a long time, is it?? (More...)
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jacersagain | Aug 26, 2011, 10:59 PM EDT
Specifically @ eiriamach – returning to my promise to address what I think are some of the reforms that you see as desirable in the RCC – the issues of women priests, and, thebneed to accept the demands of non-Catholic churches engaged with it in ecumenical discussions. On women priests, the RCC and its sister Eastern Orthodox Churches say they do not have authority from Jesus Christ to anoint women with the Sacrament of Holy Orders. One of the prime reasons that the Church gives as sample proof of that is that during Christ’s time and mission on what we call Earth, He never once asked His Holy Mother, Mary, to be one of his chosen ministers. Neither did He ask any of the other women that He had a lot of hugging close contact with, such as Susanna, Sarah, Joanna, Salome and others, or the most famously known one, Mary Magdalene, to be such.(More...)
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jacersagain | Aug 25, 2011, 07:15 PM EDT
(...more for eiriamach) I have said that I am quite happy, after years of questioning on aspects of most world religions and beliefs, of many interpretations of morals in world-wide human people’s lives and after many travel experiences, to accept the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and of its member Churches and their common Apostolic mission on behalf of Jesus Christ as Christ’s way for me, and most importantly everybody under guidance of God's Holy Spirit. That is not to say that I am not a sinner, or that I fully accept some of the Churches pronouncements; I have enough working brain cells in me own Irish, Dublin-bred head to decide when some of them and, yes, some of its tactics, are dodgy – artfully diplomatically so - and have said so. Despite all I’ve gone through, I have ultimately recognised and forthrightly said below, even bellowed, that the RCC’s human failings are not ever grounds for any Catholic to desert the RCC, or for any single person to dismiss it, or be free to not join it. It is, after all, Christ’s Church. >>> I am quite satisfied that Jesus Christ is at the core of its work, despite Satan’s persistant attacking presence and his wasteful attacks within and outside of it (including on me and you). I don’t ever have to feel that I need to go and research and quote prominent anti-Catholic or reserved Catholic scholars writings, or misrepresentative passages from the Bible, or other know-it-all writers and journalists of any anti-Catholic hue to reinforce my ICentral posts. They fail of teir own accord.nJesus Christ is much well able to defend the Church He founded than I am. Yet, I write only to needlessly defend unjustifiable attacks against the Catholic Church, as would be the response of any defeated, deflated anti-Catholic person as I once was, as any pretender of anti-Catholicism will find, just as like any ordinary "jacers" found.
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jacersagain | Aug 25, 2011, 06:53 PM EDT
(...more for eiraimach) I have posted below about Pope Benedict’s historical efforts to engage in dialogue with those of non-Catholic faiths and his own determined purpose to do so under his publically declared dedication to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I have said, under this topic above by Antoinette Kelly that I would welcome changes to the Irish Catholic Church’s administrative structure and the way it insufficiently or incorrectly manages its Christian mission and the rightfully justifiable attacks on it. I have consistently pointed out that I am an ordinary man, a Dublin man, a married family man now a widower, one who has travelled, has some appreciable level of education, a man with, thankfully, a job in these times of economic recession and one who has never claimed to be a scholar or a person with time on his hands to delve into stuff that can be argued over from now ‘til Kingdom come in semantic or other ways , apart from banter (and it was only banter), about Amazonian Christian ‘wimmen’... (More...)
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jacersagain | Aug 25, 2011, 06:47 PM EDT
@ eiriamach – Forgive late reply, have been too busy on other matters to engage further on this or any other ICentral topic. I’m sure you'll recognise, with yr gr8t intelligence and forte for research that I am most disappointed that you have twisted my responses to allege that I have posted ‘ad hominem’ responses to JuneAnnette’s posts or that I have ignored certain issues, particularly a subject close to your heart about church reform and JA's about child abuse by both ordained and lay members of various churches, Christian and non-Christian, which JA constantly brings up under any topic regarding the Roman Catholic Church when it is not the topic under discussion (I wonder how JA might respond if she, or her mind-fuddling mentor, saw posts by Non-Irish members of all of the faiths based around Abraham on ICentral addressing her mentor’s pathetic, despairingly argued posts). If you read through my posts again, hopefully you will see they are not based on fallacies or any kind of invalid argument. I will hopefully address the points that I think you call on me to address has to do with reform of the Catholic Church as you see it as from a woman’s point of view (more on that, for you, eiriamach, in a very serious vein, hopefully later. Right now, more on yr allegations under Antoinette’s article above...)
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eiriamach | Aug 22, 2011, 03:40 PM EDT
It's a pity that you see an invitation to discussion or debate as an attack, Jacers. You have not addressed the issue; instead you've used ad hominem arguments against JuneAnnette. I conclude that you are content to be a subject of absolute papal power, are not a friend to democratic governance, remain hostile to non-Roman Christians, and prefer not to do your own thinking on any matter having to do with church governance, morality, or the life of the spirit. I hope you can come to grips with the coming upheaval, for it is indeed coming. Back in the 1920s, one of my favorite authors described the kind of degeneration and transformation in religion that we are witnessing in Ireland now: "There is a time of maturing, when the true element of the human spirit, suppressed and buried, comes to hidden readiness so urgent and so tense that it awaits only a touch from Him who touches in order to burst forth. The revelation that then makes its appearance seizes in the totality of its constitution the whole elemental stuff that is thus prepared, melts it down, and produces in it a form that is a new form of God in the world." It would be good to be ready for this process and at least not to get in the way of it and maybe even to help welcome it as it unfolds, however chaotic and rebellious it might seem at present.
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jacersagain | Aug 21, 2011, 08:18 PM EDT
@eiriamach... sorry but I decline yr invitation. I have already posted undefeatable responses to yr many other "allegator in denial" posts. >>> Does it ever hit home to anybody out there that no one rushed to jacer’s aid when he was attacked by Christian Amazonian wimmen?- when he was pleading for help?? It must be clearly deduced therefore that jacers doesn’t need defending. Lemme tell yez, that frightens jacer...
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