Papal Nuncio asks Irish to reflect on their ancestors' Catholic faith during tough times

Just dropped by today, and I'm sorry I missed Barneyjo's and seanomelb's comments of last week. I ap0ologize to barneyjo, who is right, certainly, that not all Catholics are censoring bullies. I'd like to see discussion and debate between Catholics and other Christians, particularly the doctrinal/liturgy centered churches. Like in the old days, I mean early church councils, where people talked and debated until they reached an understanding that almost everyone could agree on. If you read the Catholic idea of "infallibility," it suggests that we know the truth has emerged when all Christians reach consensus on matters that transcend eras and cultures. And seanomelb's point, yes, I know that some defrocked priests and others are assigned to media tasks such as posting on Catholic Church news articles and blogs. In some cases, the task is assigned almost by extortion in exchange for not prosecuting abuse cases against the priests. IC has a share of them; some use female screen names, and some use multiple names and give themselves away with the same repeated mis-spellings and grammar idiosyncrasies. I'd guess that background explains much of the didactic and mean-spirited tone. But it's so counter-productive for the Church!!!

@Mortimer74 - I think we have come to the same place but from slightly different directions. The points you make regarding the prevalence of abuse in society are of course reasonable. I would differ from you in my view that the history of child abuse within all the christian churches which of course must include our own catholic church is of an entirely different magnitude. From the point of time scales (incidents of child abuse by religious predators has been known about for centuries in the case of our own church for nearly 12 millennia. Secondly, from the point of dogma - a critical factor ( that members of all churches have on the one hand sought to entreat us to live by the word of God, yet in many instances have been shown to have feet of clay and they themselves have not lived by that word). From the point of restitution ( that all churches have rowed back to some degree on the committments made to child protection) Of course, as a practicing catholic, my main concern must be for my own church. So when I see hear what has been done to cover up such horror, and the lies and deceit used, not by some, but by many, regrettably I neither enthuse about, or endorse the "broad brushstrokes" you paint of our church in action in relation to how it deals with priest abusers, or more importantly, their unfortunate victims.

Put all those child rapes behind you, the Church has. Just get back in your knees to them like your grandparents did. The history in between never happened.

barneyjo (part2). I do believe the Church has set in place appropriate measures to safeguard children. I can’t speak for Ireland but in the US for example the Church: -has trained over 6 million children in providing them skills to protect them from abuse (through specially designed programs created by prominent child safety experts) -has trained over 2 million adults, including over 99 percent of all priests, in recognizing signs of abuse -has conducted over 2 million background checks, including those in the intensified screening process for aspiring seminarians and priests -has installed review boards in nearly all dioceses, with the purpose of the boards being to thoroughly review all credible allegations of abuse -has installed “Victim Assistance Coordinators” in every diocese Of course the implementation of this infrastructure depends on human beings who are not infallible. We can never ensure that every policeman is a straight one, every politician an honest one, but we must ensure we have systems in place to identify and deal with them expeditiously.

Barneyjo, (part 1), I promised to get back to you so here goes. Given the procedures put in place from the time of the Dallas Charter in 2002, it is indeed hugely disappointing when there is serious mismanagement and manipulation by even one bishop. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin was as vociferous as anybody in his condemnation of Magee, and highlighted the damage done to the credibility of the Church in Ireland at a time when it was striving to institutionalize accountability. I recall government ministers calling for 5 year prison sentences for bishops deliberately covering up cases of child abuse. I would go along with that – provided the same rule is applied to anybody anywhere who covers up cases of child abuse. Victims of abuse deserve for there to be a level playing field in this regard. I shudder to think how many administrators in the US public school system would find themselves behind bars if such a measure were implemented, to give just one non-clerical example.

You're barking up the wrong tree there Mr Brown

Commentator, part2: The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members. What percentage of all priests in the US were convicted between 1950-2002? 0.2%. How many credible allegations against Catholic priests were there last year? 7. Yes, 7. Sure, there have been bad priests who betrayed the Church. One of the Apostles was a traitor. The other 11 were wonderful men. The record of the Church compares favorably to society at large. Again, get it into your brain: perspective. As to your other points, yes, the Church did indeed pay compensation to fraudulent “victims.” Those that genuinely suffered deserved compensation, an apology and sympathy. As for those who, aided and abetted by unscrupulous lawyers and “victims groups,” made false accusations against innocent priests (and there have been many – 173 over the last 3 years in the US), they are the real “filth.” Now that the dust has settled, in every case where a priest has been exonerated, the Church should sue the fraudsters and extortionists, and take back the monies paid to these lice. Lie detector test? If you do a little research, you’ll find that many accused priests over the last decade have willingly submitted to lie detector tests and passed them. Their accusers, meanwhile, have mysteriously shied away from them. Unfortunately, the results have not been allowed in the kangaroo courts.

Commentator, part1: good grief! Where to start with you? I’ll start by agreeing with one point. Objective, impartial media coverage of the abuse issue has indeed helped bring about reforms in the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, there has been little objective, impartial coverage. Rather, mainstream media has obsessively narrowed its reporting on the Catholic Church. Thus, the brainwashed and deluded like you and others on this sight, completely miss the point. You write, “Why would you ask about abuse in other denominations and schools? How does that impact the Catholic Church clergy?” Try to get one word into your brain. Perspective. Child sexual abuse is a societal problem. Let me repeat and rephrase that for you: child sexual abuse is a society-wide problem. You speak of a “world wide epidemic”? Yet, you, like the other embittered, myopic people on here deliberately restrict the perception of that epidemic to the Catholic Church. Ignoring the plight of children who have been sexually abused by ministers, teachers, sports coaches, scout leaders, stepfathers, uncles and so on is a disgrace. According to government numbers, in 2010 alone, there were some 63,527 reported cases of child sexual abuse in the United States. 9.2% of child abuse cases are sexual. Why would I mention schools? Are you for real? A 2004 report commissioned by the US Department of Education found that “nearly 9.6 percent of [public school] students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career.” The author of the report, Hofstra University’s Charol Shakeshaft, has said, “Think the Catholic Church has a problem? The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests.”

Eirimach!! The woundedknees Mortimers and Jacers of this world when they lose an argument they resort to bullying and bigotry. They are not capable of reason. As a catholic born Presbetyrian church (married) and now a committed atheist(humanist)i love all people of all religions or no religion. I think you will find that Jacer is a priest or a failed priest.

@Mortimer74 - I have had the same problem. Persistence pays they do say :)!!

barneyjo, I'm trying hard to get posts up. Have submitted numerous times. Alas, only post 2 of 2 to eiriamach was published. My response to Commentator has not appeared (sent hours ago). Not sure why IC is not publishing them. Will happily reply to you once they have done so.

@eiriamach - be assured that not every catholic is in the business of censoring dissenting or alternative view; myself being an example. After all, to dissent and disagree is to follow in the footsteps of Christ who during his ministry went out of his way to challenge the prevailing "status quo" of his day, and paid for it with his life. I also hope that you will appreciate that many of us, as Catholics are relative newcomers to the concept of dissent, and it will take us a little time to play "catch-up" :)

How ironic it is for Catholics like WKnee to be calling someone of my religious persuasion "fundamentalist"! It is not at all strange, however, for Catholics to be trying to censor me again, yet again, and then again some more, more....

@Mortimer74 - grateful for any further views and reflections you might care to share re my observations on Bishop John Magee in Cloyne, Ireland, or Bishop Finn in Missouri. My point being that the "whole" is not necessarily as great as the sum of the parts!!

Reflect on the tens of thousands of raped, abused, and forgotten children and the culture of shame and secrecy that made it flourish. And rejoice when the last Roman outpost sends them packing back to Rome.