46 Comments

• BrianO | Nov 20, 2012, 09:50 AM EST

  If only we could get New York to protest 4 dead in Bengazi, abandoned by their fearless president. But whats an ambassador and some navy seals lives in the big scheme of things, seven hours watching them die a slow death really just good video for obama, a little reality tv, He is off to Burma, oops Myramar, wouldn't want to offend any despots.

• barneyjo | Nov 20, 2012, 04:41 AM EST

  @EamonDublin - "Due diligence" by any other name is still due diligence!! Point made. And, as regards the potential for further fall-out, I understand that Indian Police are having to guard the Irish Embassy in Delhi, due to the strength of feeling that this incident has provoked. To paraphrase Gerry Adams, the tragic consequences of the death of Savita Halappanavar "are not going to go away you know"!!

• EamonnDublin | Nov 20, 2012, 03:28 AM EST

  !Barneyjo" - Due diligence is one thing. Summoning the Irish ambassador to account for ourselves, with a remark that this could "become an international diplomatic incident" is quite another. As in all things, it's the way it's done. Éamonn - Extremely Proud to be Irish - where the rate of death in childbirth is one of the very lowest in the world.

• barneyjo | Nov 19, 2012, 03:51 PM EST

  @EamonDublin - not the point at all. The point or principle of a State having a duty of care to its naturalised citizens both at home and abroad. "The Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ireland requests all whom it may concern to allow the bearer, a citizen of Ireland, to pass freely and without hinderance, AND TO AFFORD THE BEARER ALL NECESSARY ASSISTANCE AND PROTECTION" This as you know is written in the first page of a standard Irish Passport, pointing to an established international convention as I am sure there is a similar request contained within an Indian passport. So the Indian Government is well within its rights to ensure that one of its citizens received "all necessary assistance and protection" So, due diligence and not slander or slur as you have heavily intimated!!

• EamonnDublin | Nov 19, 2012, 01:01 PM EST

  Ciara, If you were Indian or Chinese, or from some other countries also, you might not even be here - they have plenty of abortions when it is known that the baby is to be a girl. Now, want to have another little think? Best Wishes to You, Éamonn, Dublin, Extremely Proud to be Irish.

• ciaradexy | Nov 19, 2012, 12:11 PM EST

  Time to legalise abortion. 100% pro choice. Its not for me or anyone else to make a decision for a pregnant woman, its entirely her decision.

• EamonnDublin | Nov 19, 2012, 11:46 AM EST

  "BarneyO" - You answered your own ponderance. Michaela McAreavy (God Rest her sweet soul) was murdered. The death of Savita Halappanavar (God rest her sweet soul) is the subject of an investigation, and until the result of this investigation is known the Indian government has no reason to believe her death was due to criminal action. In fact, I don't believe that anybody in a sane state of mind would consider her death to have been caused by criminal activity or inactivity. Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.

• eiriamach | Nov 19, 2012, 10:01 AM EST

  What the Indian government does or says is irrelevant to what the Irish government must do and has too long delayed doing. Savita's case underscores the fact that risks to women with problem pregnancies entering Irish hospitals are dire and urgent. Why do men think they have the right to a law that deprives women of a basic human right to life-saving medical procedures? Hospital staff refused this woman an abortion of a dying fetus--when her life was at immediate risk and no other life could benefit from the sacrifice of her life. It makes no rational sense; it makes sense only at the level of an irrational lust for power, the power to deprive women of a legitimate, God-given human right, autonomy of conscience. It's shameful and utterly indefensible. Just look at the irrational words and fantasies of control in comments here-- "mandatory "counseling"! and Ireland need do nothing because Indian critics are hypocrites? Enough nonsense from men!

• barneyjo | Nov 19, 2012, 04:51 AM EST

  @EamonDublin - I would have thought that it would be incumbent on a Government, any Government be it Irish or Indian to make representations on behalf of the friends and family of one of its citizens who dies abroad. The sad case of Michaela McAreavy is a case in point. The Irish Government rightly in my view made representations to the Government of Maritius when it became clear that there was a criminal motive behind her death, and to establish the facts behind that death. This being the case, then the Indian Government is doing just the same on behalf of the family of one of its citizens who has died abroad in circumstances which remain far from clear at this point!!

• EamonnDublin | Nov 19, 2012, 04:22 AM EST

  "EiriAmach" - Your adolescent excursion into semantics and pedantics has become over tiresome. The death of Savita was a great tragedy, as was the death during childbirth of two Irish women in the Coombe Hospital in Dublin within 48 hours two months ago - albeit we have heard nothing in the media about the latter. I repeats - the deaths are a great tragedy. I also repeat that the Indian government, by attacking Irish society and medical care over one of those deaths, is hypocritical in the extreme when one examines India's culture of killing thousands of innocent young women in the name of family honour. Now, have I made myself clear enough for you? Éamonn, Dublin.

• Gearoid4 | Nov 18, 2012, 09:37 PM EST

  Thanks for your reply, Barneyjo, as you are as erudite and thought provoking as ever. I agree that unfortunately thousands of Irish women have made the trip across the Irish sea to end their pregnancies, but I sincerely think that they deserve much better than referral to the nearest abortion mill. The psychological consequences of abortion on women can be devastating and it is preferable that they receive counselling before embarking on such a decision, due to it's negative impact.

• barneyjo | Nov 18, 2012, 07:20 PM EST

  @Gearoid4 - Thank you for your response, although I note it has no direct bearing on the points I raise. And that is historically and culturally, generations of Irish women (both catholic and protestant) have exposed themselves to the risks of poor medical care, unlicensed abortionists both in Ireland and England, rather than endure the shame imposed upon the Irish Nation and its psyche, by agents of the state, which you will concede were heavily influenced by both the Catholic Church and by the Reformed churches (in NI where the 1967 abortion bill was never implemented. Your concern re the availability of abortion on demand is also negated by the fact that abortion on demand is and has been available to Irish women for many years; you are as aware as I am of the numbers of Irish women who have gone to England to have terminations. And this exodus didnt start today or yesterday. I agree with you absolutely that there should be no indecent haste to rush to implement bad law. Equally though, the "status quo" which has stood for so long, is in my view, no longer tenable in view of what happened in Galway. Like you I await with interest the outcome of the investigation into the regrettable death of this young woman. I am however fearful that it will be shown in the eyes of the world that she was a victim of bad law, and medical malpractice. And that SHOULD be a concern for all Irish people.

• eiriamach | Nov 18, 2012, 06:45 PM EST

  "do not deny me to broaden the issue as I feel." Of course not! I have not and would never try to censor you or shut you up. But just as I support your freedom to say what you feel, I insist on mine to voice my opinion too, even when my opinion is that you've gotten it wrong in a way that I find illogical or offensive. "cannot allow others a viewpoint"?? Now who's making "ridiculous and patently false accusations"?

• EamonnDublin | Nov 18, 2012, 06:05 PM EST

  "EiriAmach" - This is just gone far too ridiculous. I said what I thought about Savita's tragic death and I went on to comment about what I considered to be offensive comments by the Indian authorities. One is allowed to broaden the issue, which I did - otherwise a "debate" simply turns into "Right - wrong - right - wrong" and gets nowhere. You are entitled to stick to your rigid discipline and not go outside the box, but please do not deny me to broaden the issue as I feel. As for your reasoning on your use of the word "maybe" when implying that I am a racist, are you seriously saying that if I say, for example, "EiriAmach, I think maybe you are an idiot", that I am REALLY saying that I think you are the height of intelligence? Come on, you were CLEARLY saying I am a racist - the last resort for cycloptic people who cannot allow others a viewpoint. Éamonn.

• eiriamach | Nov 18, 2012, 05:05 PM EST

  Eamonn, I've looked again at your 3.52 post on Kate Hickey's article, and it is clearly NOT addressed to the tragedy of Savita's death. It IS an attack on the Indian government. Although you begin by saying that you do not wish "to diminish the awful tragedy of the Indian lady, Savita, and her unborn baby," after that pre-text, all of your posting is about "so-called "honour killings" in India. That's a transparent attempt, I concluded earlier (after you refused to consider the problem one of logic--red herring/ shift of theme), to distract attention from the crucial question of what IRELAND--not India--could have done or needs to do to avoid more such tragedies. No doubt there are many blogs on which you can voice your opinion on Indian atrocities and criticisms of the Catholic Church, but this particular set of articles is not about that. I will not apologize for caring deeply, as many women do, about the legal disadvantages of women under Irish law. You seem unable to deal with the fact that such disadvantages exist. BTW: the word "maybe" never adds up to an accusation and often connotes a query.

• Gearoid4 | Nov 18, 2012, 04:33 PM EST

  The fetus is a developing human in the life and worthy of respect. He/she is not just a collection of cells to be disposed as we feel fit. Every human being who exists/existed went through the fetal stage in the womb and deserves to be protected by the law. This is not to say that the life in the womb is more important than the mother's, but to state that both lives are worthy of the utmost respect and preservation. The "right to chose" has become a mantra which it's promulgators chant without thinking about the destructive impact it has on the growing child in the womb.

• EamonnDublin | Nov 18, 2012, 04:08 PM EST

  "Eiriamach" - You never stop, do you. Now, not only do you repeat that I "don't care about the lives of pregnant women", you also accuse me of being racist (("maybe pregnant Indian women, whatever!"). And again I say to you, The Bloody Cheek of You!!!! I have already referred you to my very FIRST post on this subject - on the article by Kate Hickey entitled "Thousands Gather to Protest", etc. My post is dated 3.52pm on 15th November and I refer to the "awful tragedy" and I also said it was "very sad". Once again, you simply ignore what I have written and choose to throw out LIBELLOUS accusations of racism, etc at me. What is it about people like you? Can't you just have a discussion without making ridiculous and patently false accusations. Thank you for your one retraction - I now look forward to your being man or woman enough to offer the second. Éamonn, Dublin.

• eiriamach | Nov 18, 2012, 02:45 PM EST

  Eamonn, I read your postings on this article and on the others about the death of Savita Halappanavar. Nowhere in the many words that you wrote did I see you address the point of the articles-- the unnecessary and agonizing death of a pregnant woman in an Irish hospital. You indulged in sweeping accusations against Indians and people who criticize the Catholic Church-- virtually all of it completely irrelevant to the important issues raised by this case. But you have consistently refused to deal with the facts of Savita's case. So yes, it certainly looks like you just don't care about the lives of pregnant women, or maybe pregnant Indian women, whatever! On your say-so, however, I hereby retract whatever I wrote about your being Catholic.

• eiriamach | Nov 18, 2012, 02:32 PM EST

  Without pro-choice legislation, doctors cannot act clearly and decisively to save the lives of pregnant women whose bodies do not spontaneously abort problem pregnancies. Without legal protection of women's right to decide, the state, in effect, takes ownership of pregnant female bodies. Without legal protection of choice, women of childbearing age are reduced to the status of property. What a bizarre and profoundly evil, dehumanizing situation for any Christian to advocate! A fetus is not a morally autonomous human being; it is not even a child, let alone a child of morally competent age. We protect its ability to develop into a morally autonomous human being, but not by sacrificing other lives to that sometimes remote possibility, and we must have the moral courage to acknowledge that sometimes it is an impossibility. Women are morally competent human beings-- except in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Nature has entrusted the decision to continue or terminate a pregnancy to women-- only the Catholic Church (and other male power-trippers) refuses to allow that choice.

• EamonnDublin | Nov 18, 2012, 02:29 PM EST

  Dear EiriAmach - You are at it once again. You say "posters like Eamonn, who are motivated only to keep Church control over over Irish law" and you go on to accuse me of having my "mind and soul closed to compassion", etc., etc. How bloody DARE you be so presumptuous? I have NO desire WHATSOEVER to see the Catholic church, or any other church, having "control over Irish law". Not that it's any business of yours, but I am not even a practicing Catholic. I believe in God, full stop. "Gearoid4" has responded to you perfectly, thank you Gearoid, so I will be brief as I don't wish to waste my time on a person who just likes handing out gratuitous insults. As for your accusation that "deaths of real live women are of no consequence" to me, this reflects only on yourself, in that you can even believe that such despicable people exist. For myself, I love and cherish every human being on the planet earth. Your personal remarks about me are totally disgusting and, quite frankly, you should be damn well ashamed to have written them. Éamonn, Dublin.

• Gearoid4 | Nov 18, 2012, 01:54 PM EST

  @Barneyjo, You state that the "status quo" cannot continue but that is no reason to introduce in a hastily fashion legislation that will facilitate ostensibly in some scenarios, but will eventually lead to abortion in demand. This was to be the course of events in both the US(ROE v ROE decision 1973) and in the UK(Abortion Act 1967). In the US there have been over 40 million nascent lives snuff out since that fateful decision, and in the UK currently over 180,000 abortions take place annually. There must be a thorough investigation into the cause and the medical procedures used at the time of this young lady's death. But one must not answer it with a premature rush to put through pro-abortion legislation, as this is the counsel of despair and abortion is a grave evil. The best solution is the provision of the best medical care for both mother and baby and indeed Ireland is one of the safest places in the world in that regard. @Eiriamach, you throw around descriptive terms like "barbaric" around in an unthinking and insulting fashion which are a parody of the truth. Ireland has one of the most advanced systems of medical care in the world in relation to maternal and baby care. You insult the medical staff who diligently and selflessly carry out their duties, day after day in Irish hospitals. I see also typically that there is no mention of the child in the womb in your latest contribution. I am not saying that the life of developing child should trump the mother's, but due consideration should be given to it as well.

• eiriamach | Nov 18, 2012, 01:22 PM EST

  The reason why posters implicate the Catholic Church in Savita's death, even though Ireland is becoming religiously diverse, is that Catholic bishops have influenced Irish law from the state's beginnings. That RC control has not faded; the Dáil has not enacted law in response to the 20-year-old supreme court decision on abortion; Irish law on women's rights remains the most atavistic in the EU. Ambiguity about "the life of the mother" intimidates physicians, who use vagueness in the law as excuse for allowing women needlessly to die and for bringing to birth suffering infants that have no chance of surviving or living human lives. That's the status quo, and it is indeed barbaric in its consequences for women with problem pregnancies and for their families. Posters like Eamonn, who are motivated only to keep Church control over Irish law, are closed to facts, their minds and souls closed to compassion. Deaths of real live women under barbaric conditions are of no consequence to them as long as Catholic thinking continues to prevail at law and men still make the laws that enable this unconscionable euthanasia of pregnant women.

• eiriamach | Nov 18, 2012, 12:49 PM EST

  Barneyjo, good post!

• barneyjo | Nov 18, 2012, 06:27 AM EST

  I note that the posters here who seem to be advocates for the contiunation of the present status quo, are content not to reflect on the social history of Ireland and its related mores: that prompted countless thousands of Irish women, both catholic and protestant to put their lives at risk rather than expose themselves to the stigma of unmarried pregnancy, across the generations. Rather, they put themselves in the hands of "back street" abortionists either here in Ireland or indeed in England. Latterly of course, the changes is British Legislation combined with improving standards of health care has mitagated in favour of their well being even after a termination. I would be interested in hearing the views of those advocates the status quo. However if any response amounts to nothing more than " well they shouldnt have opened their legs" then they will have lost the argument by default in my view!!

• EamonnDublin | Nov 18, 2012, 05:23 AM EST

  It's sadly comical, the way in which many have used this tragedy to abuse Ireland and the Catholic church. The hatred in some of the posts borders on evil. Words such as "murder" and "barbarism" are used with gay abandon. Ireland is right up there at the forefront in the world of care and safety in childbirth. And as for the vicious attacks on the Catholic church, well, for the past few years we have been told by the media that Ireland is a "post-Catholic country". Why is it now very suddenly repositioned by that same media - and by hordes of anti-Catholics who use this tragedy as an attack weapon - as a "Catholic priest-ridden country". This had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Catholic church - it had zero involvement. Those who wish to cater for women's rights would do well to look elsewhere, where there is PLENTY of work to be done. Our women in Ireland are looked after exceedingly well, thank you very much - and that includes the thousands of pregnant non-Irish women who arrive on our shores every year in order to have their babies here and live here . Éirinn go Brágh!! Éamonn, Dublin.

• stanchaz | Nov 18, 2012, 05:09 AM EST

  Ireland! It's time for you to end your own version of Sharia Law, and embrace separation of Church and State, like other civilized countries. Pulpits should be for worship -not for politics.

• stanchaz | Nov 18, 2012, 04:57 AM EST

  We need to thank our lucky stars.... that Romney and his women-hating, Supreme-Court-changing crew of billionaire buddies .... were not swept into office by American voters. Sanity has prevailed.

• Cyn | Nov 17, 2012, 09:11 PM EST

  And if she had had other children they would now be motherless, all because the hospital she was admitted to was Catholic - who valued the life of a non viable fetus over the beautiful loved professional grown woman. They killed her as surely as the fetus they valued above her would have been if scraped out in a D&C. They probably even introduced the bacteria that made her septic via the pelvic exam they surely did on admission. Anti abortion laws and policies do not reduce the number of abortions. They merely increase maternal death due to infection and poor surgical technique by unskilled providers. FGS, even I know how to induce an early abortion via herbs. This hospital murdered Savita. They love life? What about hers? What about her now widowed young husband simply because she was admitted to the wrong hospital? Why on earth would a hospital be certified if they do not provide a very basic health care option that would have saved her life? I hope he sues all the way up the chain to Rome.

• bignevermo | Nov 17, 2012, 07:53 PM EST

  Ken from Dublin...here is the reality of abortions and death of the woman."Abortion, when induced in the developed world in accordance with local law, is among the safest procedures in medicine.[1] However, unsafe abortions result in approximately 70 thousand maternal deaths and 5 million disabilities per year globally... note that abortion is one of the SAFEST medical procedures in countries that are developed...they made this woman suffer! WTH?? SUFFER FOR UN-VIABLE FETUS? Why do you judge people like this? If you don't want to have an abortion great...but why would you prevent someone else from doing so? This very situation should have been resolved 20 years ago...that is what people get upset about too!

• Paradigm | Nov 17, 2012, 06:08 PM EST

  Catholics Max Tiger and Ken from Dublin have it in the right perspective. This Protestant also believes in the sanctity of lives of unborn children and can differentiate between anti-Christian prejudice and a tragic medical mistake. So just calm down you "anything goes" bigots.

• Happyhippo | Nov 17, 2012, 05:32 PM EST

  The reason this has become a controversy is because Savita died unnecessary when the means to save her life was available,but for the fact that Irish governments refused to legislate on the Supreme court ruling on the x case 20 years previous, which states that if the life of the mother is in danger the option to abort can legally be taken,the problem with this is the people rejected abortion by referendum,and until the government signs off on the court judgement,it will remain in limbo.

• alisaann | Nov 17, 2012, 05:30 PM EST

  this is BULL CRAP....this young woman DIED, because of irelands CATHOLIC views on life...the mother possible COULD have been SAVED, had the aborted the fectus, as she BEGGED the medical staff to DO...GET A MOVE ON....BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE DIE, OVER CATHOLIC BELIEFS....AND THAT'S JUST WRONG, IMO. ALISA

• MaxTiger | Nov 17, 2012, 04:25 PM EST

  The only facts known to the public are that this woman died has a result of an infection during a miscarriage. There are no laws or medical ethic guidelines prohibiting the removal of the child if that is what is needed to save the mother's life. Catholic teachings also allows for treatment, not that the Church's view would have trumped state law. The only reason this has become the controversy it has is down to anti-Catholic bigotry in Ireland and around the world.

• leitrimabu | Nov 17, 2012, 03:56 PM EST

  knowing that abortion became legal in this country because of a lie, we need to be very careful not to rush to legelize it in Ireland. Women still die today in childbirth even here in the US.

• FrankF | Nov 17, 2012, 03:45 PM EST

  The Doctor was working within the laws of Ireland, nobody outside the country has the right to ask for change, anyone who isnt happy with the laws there, can book a trip somewhere else, where abortion is no problem!!

• irishamerica46 | Nov 17, 2012, 03:08 PM EST

  The doctor who let her die needs to be investigated.He allowed her to develope septicemia which is what killed her.No antibiotics???

• eirefest2 | Nov 17, 2012, 01:57 PM EST

  What do you mean when you refer to..."a non viable fetus"

• PhoenixZouave | Nov 17, 2012, 01:51 PM EST

  Well ladies of NYC, time to stop ypur fury at gender problems and pressure Obama's administration to stop ignoring SAS patrols and missions into the Free State and the North of Ireland. The SAS is very astute at murder. They don't need an operating room. They just grab an Irish Republican, push him on to his knees, and shoot him in the back of the neck. Is Obama treating the SAS like a drunken friend? Since the SAS is part of England the USA must ignore its travesties to keep relations with England hunky-dorry! GOD BLESS ROBERT EMMETT!

• whiteycat | Nov 17, 2012, 01:15 PM EST

  So sad about this poor lady dying for lack of Dr. with sense of right and wrong. Im sure they knew her blood was being affected. It would not have been considered abortion, more like excising a tumor.Dr need to have a brain/

• WoundedKnee | Nov 17, 2012, 12:43 PM EST

  I'm a Columbia graduate, and thus have many pleasant memories of the ladies of Barnard College. They have many talents and much expertise, but one thing I never thought they knew much about was Ireland.

• WoundedKnee | Nov 17, 2012, 12:40 PM EST

  "Get the hell out of my country!" --Which country would that be, Joe Kelsall? Disneyworld?

• pilib04 | Nov 17, 2012, 12:04 PM EST

  Way to go New York. I will be there in spirit. News of reaction by the other Irish political parties (North and South) has been a little sparse. Have they had no comment?

• Joe Kelsall | Nov 17, 2012, 11:47 AM EST

  This tragic but avoidable incident should be the last nail in the coffin of the anti abortionists and religious fanatics. Get the hell out of my country!

• JimmieM | Nov 17, 2012, 10:39 AM EST

  The taking of a life this way is totally opposite the goals of medical care?....dumb as dumb as can be or crime

• Portia777 | Nov 17, 2012, 10:18 AM EST

  Mr. Kenney does not wish to be "rushed into a decision" No, He has to wait for his handlers to tell him what to do.

• kubs | Nov 17, 2012, 10:10 AM EST

  Mr. Kenney does not wish to be "rushed into a decision" that has had Ireland living in the 18th century. Atta way to run a gov;t.