This weekend the “New York Times Magazine” will lead with a hard hitting article outlining the clerical abuse crisis in Ireland, and the fall-off in religious belief as a result.
It quotes Father Mark Patrick Hederman, the abbot of Glenstal Abbey, a Benedictine monastery in Co. Limerick, as saying the church is indeed in deep trouble.
Hederman said, “Ireland is a prime example of what the church is facing, because they made this island into a concentration camp where they could control everything. And the control was really all about sex. They told you if you masturbated, it meant you were impure and had allowed the devil to work on you. Generations of people were crucified with guilt complexes. Now the game is up.”
Between 1974 and 2008 Mass attendance in Ireland was cut in half. The Irish, says the “Times,” are turning their back on the church which was once the foundation of their country, its special place enshrined in the constitution.
The article looks at the abuse victims and also the country’s reaction to wave after wave of abuse scandals which emerged within the Irish Catholic Church.
The piece reports that Ireland is the country with the most reported cases of sexual abuse within the church. In second place comes the United States. However, Ireland has approximately one-hundredth of the population of the U.S.
Ireland published two reports, the Murphy and the Ryan reports, which investigated the systematic sexual abuse of children by members of the church. The reports revealed thousands of cases of rape, sexual molestation and lurid beatings throughout Ireland's independence.
In the past two months Chapter 19 of the Murphy Report detailed the crimes of “Father Filth,” former priest Tony Walsh. He was shielded by the church as he continued to abuse.
Also, a letter has been unearthed from the papal nuncio. He told the Irish bishops that the Vatican had "serious reservations" about reporting clerical sexual abuse.
Grainne O'Sullivan, a 32-year-old graphic designer, was one of the many people in their twenties and thirties who have grown up in a mostly secular Ireland, and outraged by the revelations. That is why she, along with a web developer named Cormac Flynn and a civil servant in Cork named Paul Dunbar, set up a website called CountMeOut.ie in 2009.
She told the “Times,” "When I saw the reports, I thought, ‘I can’t even pretend to be part of this club anymore.’”
They established the website as “a way of protesting, using their own process against them.”
Over several months 12,000 downloaded the “Defectio ab Ecclesia Catholica Actu Formali” from the site.
Last August the Catholic Church changed the Canon Law. It is now impossible for Catholics to leave the church. Since then the website has suspended its service but is still active in the debate on Irish identity.
Nonetheless, Ireland and the church remain intrinsically linked. Ivana Bacik, a senator for the Labor Party, is a leader in the effort to extricate the church from the state. She said, “In no other European nation — with the obvious exception of Vatican City — does the church have this depth of doctrinal involvement in the affairs of state.”
Nowhere is this more evident than in the Irish school system. Novelist Colm Toibin attended a Christian Brothers school until he was 15.
He told the “Times,” “At times it didn’t feel like there was a line between sexual abuse and corporal punishment. Every Friday one of the brothers would take a boy in front of the class, and whichever way he hit you he’d always put his hand on your testicles. We would laugh, but in fact you were in a permanent state of fear.
“I would vomit in the morning before going out to school. They would hit you across the face if you got a sum wrong. I suppose they did teach me to read and write and for that I should be grateful, but I’m not.”
Clerical sex-abuse scandals have been uncovered in the United States, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Britain, Italy and many other countries, but in Ireland the “stakes for the Vatican are tangible.”
Ninety percent of schools in Ireland are under church patronage. Also, all public hospitals are run by the church which means procedures such as abortions and vasectomies are either illegal or problematic.
The Vatican is now trying to implement damage control in Ireland by sending the Apostolic Visitation, a group of top clergymen from outside of Ireland, to investigate the abuse scandal, the training of priests and the running of parishes.
Fr. Sean McDonagh, a leader of the Association of Irish Priests, has suggested that the Vatican “should begin by scrutinizing Rome’s own handling of sex-abuse allegations.”
Rev. Donald Cozzens, an American priest and respected moderate voice on Catholic issues told the “Times,” “I’m not aware of any major diocese in the world that has not had a sexual abuse scandal, and I believe part of the problem lies with the very structures of the church. I don’t want to say change would require a different pope or even a different culture, but it will require radical openness.
“We have to take an honest look at all the things that are in play. Is mandatory celibacy wise or even theologically sound?”
The two reports on abuse published in Ireland run to over 2,500 pages. The Ryan report examined the abuse which took place in institutions, while the Murphy report focused on the abuse that took place in the Diocese of Dublin. The details are graphic, violent and gruesome. T
The Times article describes that parts of the reports “read like a cross between Charles Dickens and Dan Brown: ‘I was beaten and hospitalized by the head brother and not allowed to go to my father’s funeral in case my bruises were seen’ and ‘I was tied to a cross and raped while others masturbated at the side.””
Pope Benedict’s plan for rebuilding the Catholic Church in Ireland as well as the visitation from outside Ireland includes prayer, fasting and engaging in “Eucharistic adoration.” The “Times” article asks, “Do the church authorities get it?”
They illustrate this point through Marie Collins’ case. Collins was abused, during the 1960s, when she was 13-years-old while in hospital.
She said, “I had no idea what he was doing, but I knew it was wrong. He might abuse me one night, then give me communion in the morning.”
Now 64, she spent years dealing with depression, anxiety and agoraphobia. When she finally spoke out about the abuse in her late thirties she was told that “she may have tempted the other priest.”
She eventually wrote to the then Archbishop of Dublin Desmond Connell. She was told not to “ruin his life.”
With help from the police her abuser, a Father McGennis, was imprisoned. The publication of the Murphy Report proved that the church knew about McGennis’ behavior over the years. Collins wanted the church to be held accountable.
Last year it was revealed that Cardinal Sean Brady, the head of the Irish church, participated in the 1975 cover-up of the notorious Fr. Brendan Smyth. He was not forced to resign. Collins said, “That means the church here in Ireland is being led by a man who will not be accountable.”
Referring to Pope Benedict’s Pastoral letter and rebuilding the church she said, “Prayer and adoration of the eucharist is fine…but we have had the Pope on a number of occasions saying how shocked he is by revelations of abuse around the world. It’s hard to take that seriously when we know that as Cardinal Ratzinger, in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he saw the abuse reports.”
She continued, “I don’t practice as a Catholic anymore. It’s so hard to reconcile what the men at the top do with what Jesus preached.”
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.jacersagain | Feb 17, 2011, 06:33 PM EST
Since God exists and created mankind and mankind knew God from the beginning of its creation, shouldn’t one know that it is impossible to deny God exists?
jacersagain | Feb 17, 2011, 06:32 PM EST
Since God exists and created mankind and mankind knew God from the beginning of its creation, shouldn’t one know that it is impossible to deny God exists?
ShamrockShore | Feb 17, 2011, 12:10 AM EST
If god didn't exist, then surely mankind would invent him - thus starting a belief in something that doesn't exist.
jacersagain | Feb 16, 2011, 06:00 PM EST
BTW warrenpoint00 – there is no letter ‘V’ in the Irish alphabet, so posting 'Votail Sinn Fein' is as full of nonsense as your post is. There is no word in the Irish language for ‘vote’, no more than there is one for ‘motor car’. “Toghair le chéile i bhfabhar le...” is the correct Irish phrase for ‘vote for ...” which, ironically, means “Summons yourselves together to ... ” >>> “Votail” is an ‘English-ified’ version of the Irish word “Toghair”, just like Gerry Adams is a now-confirmed ‘English-ified’ baron, summonsed to serve the UK’s Regent until he dies (he’ll be paid handsomely for that too), just as English is a Saxon version of German. Vot ail shyou, warpaint00???? (Pardon my germ-english).
jacersagain | Feb 16, 2011, 05:51 PM EST
warrenpoint00 says - “you can still retain your catholic values without attending church” – I clash with him on that – it’s a nonsense statement. True Catholic values are based around the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ which is celebrated by communal attendance at Mass, which itself is based around sharing Confession, Epistles, Gospel, Declaration of Belief, Praise to God, The Eucharist, The Lord’s Prayer, Requesting Forgiveness and Holy Communion with Christ and His/Our Father. Singularly, they each have values but together, they constitute a unity. Not one of those elements of the Mass are facets of institutional government or about banks. Please don't confuse them or people with nonsense. >>> “Having catholic values without attending Church to celebrate the Eucharist is like....” - What? Would anyone care to finish the sentence? We could have a competition on an answer to finishing this statement. Prize undisclosed ;-)
warrenpoint00 | Feb 15, 2011, 09:23 PM EST
You can still retain your catholic values without attending a church.The way it see it is that religion and religious leaders were the first form of government and exponents of law and order and so when that institute gets so corrupt and when the law abiding citizens realizes that corruption in that institute is uncontrollable then they become a little corrupt as well, like taking a loan from the E.U knowing well they cannot repay that loan and so the domino effect is in place.And so comes the end of the institute, like the government of the free state and the catholic church in Ireland.Prevent anarchy. Votail Sinn Fein
jacersagain | Feb 15, 2011, 05:19 PM EST
I read the update on the ‘Visitation’ by eiriamach which was published in Irish newspapers yesterday. You can google or bing >> independent(dot)ie << On the right of yr screen, scroll down to a box headed Most Popular and find a detailed report in the list below “Pope to be told church ‘on edge of collapse’”. It really skims over the subject... Clearly, there will be much more to come.
jacersagain | Feb 15, 2011, 05:17 PM EST
To some extent I agree with snakehips. You see, Catholicism is a bit like ice cream made available in many flavours. But ice cream is still ice cream and Catholicism will still always be Catholicism, however it is presented – its core teachings and practices cannot ever change away from Christ’s. >>> I’m all in favour of married priests. The rule is not written in stone by the Vatican and is one that can be changed, just as the one-time obligation for partial fasting and eating fish on Wednesdays & Fridays was changed. Who is to say that the first Pope, Peter, didn’t sleep with his wife or didn’t have more children with her after his appointment as the ‘Rock’ by Christ? ... Or that Jesus didn’t play with Peter’s or His other Apostles’ children? The famous Cathedral of St. Mark in Venice, Italy, is said to be named after Peter’s son (Mark’s tomb is in the crypts of the Cathedral). Mark is said to have acted as his father’s ‘secretary’ – hence one could posit that Mark’s Gospel is really Peter’s true Gospel. One of four flavours perhaps? – Four Gospels, all more or less saying the same things that cannot be denied.
snakehips | Feb 15, 2011, 01:31 PM EST
The Church, in order to survive in Ireland or everywhere in the world, must give it's power to it's lay members as well, who can help the heirarchy get over it's control of ancient and crazy laws and traditions that just are too bizarre in this day and age, eg, priestly celibacy and men only priests. The church needs more flavors than the only one it is selling. I don't really know of too many Catholics under 60, who really take the Church seriously.
eiriamach | Feb 15, 2011, 10:27 AM EST
Update on the Visitation mentioned by Jacersagain and the prospects for RCC in Ireland: The Catholic News Service reported yesterday about one of the Apostolic Visitators' findings. "Cardinal Sean P. O'Malley reportedly will tell Pope Benedict XVI that the Catholic Church in Ireland is 'on the edge' of collapse due to the fallout from clerical abuse scandals." CNS also reports that Fr. Flannery, quoted in post (2/13 5:17PM) below, "said Cardinal O'Malley gave a commitment to the priests' association that he would deliver the frank assessment to the pope in a confidential report to be submitted later this year." "Admitting to being previously skeptical about the apostolic visitation, Father Flannery said that in light of Cardinal O'Malley's undertaking, 'there may be some gleam of hope.'" Cardinal O' Malley is the Visitator to Dublin. It will be interesting to see whether he will be candid with the pope and make recommendations that could help in the work of Fr. Flannery and the ACP.
jacersagain | Feb 14, 2011, 06:11 PM EST
More for eiriamach - On my 75% v your 40% attending Church: I got my 75% wrong and it looks like the NYT got its figures mixed up with America’s count. 44% of people in the USA attend Church while 84% of Irish do (though maybe not every Sunday), second in the whole world only to Nigeria which has 89%. >>> On involvement of the Laity in the Church: yes, the Church acknowledges that Laity should be more active in the Church and is actively encouraging it. Between representatives of the Irish Catholic Church, 'VOFI', 'People of the Church' and an independent Government-sponsored cross-sector group called 'Pobal' (Irish for ‘Public’) there is already dialogue taking place as to how Laity should help in bringing the Church into the future. Representatives of Pope Benedict’s ‘Visitation’ to Ireland are currently engaging with them and others. May the Wisdom of God’s Holy Spirit be with them and with us all. Again I say, Irish Central can still be fruitful seeds of the Sower and I would challenge them to be such, instead of crucifying Christ all over again, so many times.
jacersagain | Feb 14, 2011, 06:06 PM EST
Thanks to you too eiriamach, it has been quite interesting and like you I didn’t want this discussion to be dominated in recent posts between you and me; I often finish posts “suggesting” someone else could offer more comment and would still hope some others do. It is over on ICentral’s Finnegans Awake blogs column that I would expect religion to be seriously discussed; her column is so lightheartedly true. I think, for one so young in today’s (Irish-American) Catholic Church (and about to marry too!) Megan is so astute in her writings, observations and questionings that I say Bravo to her! And I apologise for being somewhat longwinded in my rants under ICentral’s Headline in James O’Brien’s article above – it is so untrue, I just had to get in there and point to facts on the ground in Ireland instead of letting Irish Central get away with its misleading Headliner above! I read the NYT article online and it is quite a fascinating reflection. I note its headline is actually ‘The Irish Affliction’ and not as James O’Brien falsely writes above. And yes, it does come across as sympathetic, not just to Irish Catholicism but to Catholic America’s and other countries’ plight as well. You could equally add in other Christian religions’ plight too.
eiriamach | Feb 14, 2011, 07:13 AM EST
Jacersagain, I want to thank you for the conversation. I hope we have not dominated this blog or pushed out others who had something to say. But it's been interesting because elsewhere on IC, when these topics come up, I find that I'm dealing with priests or theologians, who claim, ironically, that the hierarchy are the only "experts," so no one else's opinion matters. Now you're a layman who believes the same. (I don't.) If we all thought the same, there'd be no discussion.
eiriamach | Feb 14, 2011, 06:46 AM EST
The 60% figure is from the printed edition of the article, which also has photos of Irish churches nearly empty for Mass: "As impressive as the decline in Irish Church statistics has been, the 40% or so of Irish Catholics who go to Mass regularly outpaces some other traditionally once-Catholic countries. Clearly a lot of Irish want a faith community. But what kind, and under what conditions?"--p. 51, NYT Magazine. Photos are from inside St. Mary's Cathedral, Kilkenny, and St. Kevins, Dublin. The title is "The Irish Affliction," probably available on line. On the whole, it's a sympathetic article, but it paints a bleak picture. I understand your answer to my question, Jacersagain: the bishops will not permit the laity to participate in reform. When I read the relevant passages in scripture, I find that Christ gave the gift of the guidance of the Holy Spirit not only to priests and cephas, but to all the faithful. If He had not given the gift to all, then there would be nothing for the laity to do but blindly obey church "authorities," and Christ's entire life shows that was not His intention for anyone. I cannot understand, however, your meaning in "the hands of the papacy in developing ecumenism further to suit popular calls are tied by Christ’s pronouncements." Which pronouncements? Christ's prayer for the unity of his church is also clear, and all were to work to achieve it, including "we simple ones of the laity." For the Vatican unilaterally to cut off ecumenical discussions (as it did with Anglicans) violates Christ's wishes. But ecumenism is not what I had in mind; simply more involvement of laity was what I was asking about.
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 07:56 PM EST
(...more) No amount of media-screaming or laity shouting is going to change the Church’s core teachings which always remain true to that of Christ and His choice of whom to be the leading reformers. Pope Paul IV acknowledged that the papacy was ‘undoubtedly the gravest obstacle in the path of ecumenism’ but the hands of the papacy in developing ecumenism further to suit popular calls are tied by Christ’s pronouncements. We of the laity are recognised by Christ as the Church but not its teachers or structural reformers. Unless there are specific structural reforms on eiriamach’s mind that do not change Christ’s decision, as a simple layman, I can offer no other answer. Maybe someone else can.
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 07:53 PM EST
(...more) I tried answering simply IMHO, pointing out that the vast majority of laity who remain true to the Church knows the single answer to both questions. It is no one’s choice to ease any person’s conscience on anything. That is a personal choice, whatever is said by anyone. However, I do say that it is the prerogative of the Fathers of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit to make decisions on matters of faith and morals. They are much more qualified by their vocation to do so than we simple ones of the laity – indeed it is a command of Christ’s that they do. Didn’t Jesus first say to Peter “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church... whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven (i.e. by God, His Father through His Person in the Holy Spirit)” (Matt. 16: 13-19). Jesus used similar words at a later time when He turned to all of the Apostles (the first Fathers of His Church) “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven and what you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”. (Matt: 16: 19; 18: 18) Jesus is NOT recorded as saying those words to his followers at large - the LAITY, if you like – and there can be no more decisive a decision uttered by Christ. That to my thinking is the important thing. As laity we may have an input into HOW the message is spread but not into the essential teachings or pronouncements of Christ in themselves. (more...)
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 07:50 PM EST
Pardon me making more posts, as I don’t have another contribution to make on James O’Brien’s misleading headline. I don’t know where eiriamach got the 60 percent figure from; at last count I think it was ard 25 percent not practicing. However, eiriamach seems to demand an answer on a four times-posted question. I count only three and all are worded differently: 1. “Can the laity make structural changes for them to remain (members of the RCC) with clear consciences...?” 2. “In consideration of those who are leaving the RCC, is there a possibility of the laity making structural reforms to ensure that the Church will follow guidance of the Holy Spirit in the future?” and 3. Is there any possibility that the laity could make changes in the Church that would ease their consciences about staying in it?” Each question addresses different thinking. (More...)
eiriamach | Feb 13, 2011, 05:17 PM EST
For the fourth time I ask the same question: is there any possibility that the laity could make changes in the Church that would ease their consciences about staying in it? CAN they have input that would make it much less likely that various abuses of church authority would continue? No one answers this question. Much more troubling is the fact that no one seems to care about the 60% who are falling away or leaving, no more than the bishops cared about the sexual abuse victims. It's as though-- as I wrote in my first post-- the bishops are happy to see them go. That's the thing I find scary. The one exception mentioned in the NYT article is Rev. Tony Flannery of the ACP. The article quotes him as saying that the Catholics he talks with "want women more involved. They want to take their church back from Rome. . . . There's an openness now, among priests and laity." But the openness goes no higher than the priests, he says. Why? If it makes me or the NY Times or IC "vociferous anti-Church ones" to keep putting the same question, then so be it because it looks like Rev. Flannery and his rural Catholics do not have enough voices.
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 03:58 PM EST
My recent posts crossed eiriamach’s in the Ether :-) >>> I can see where the Iowan Bill was put up for discussion (though I can't see the sense in denying people housing on religious grounds; all people are of God) – many Catholics feel they are being forced to undertake work which impinges on their freedom to choose in accordance with their Catholic conscience (e.g. performing an abortion). Giving certain freedoms or placing certain obligations on people should not be at the expense, or mean denial, of freedoms to others or those being forced to carry out state obligations. Christians should be allowed to act in accordance with their religious beliefs. However, I could not extend that freedom to Muslims whose religion declares all Christians to be infidels worthy of beheading.
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 03:26 PM EST
Well, I’ve changed my mind a wee bit: Here is an extract from the wee book “My Meditations on St. Paul” – and why I say I as a simple man I often find it difficult to live up to Paul’s teachings. >>> “Dear Master, how did I ever get to the idea that I could live a smug comfortable life – without concern for saving souls? Who could be neutral? Being a Christian is a personal commitment. It means being a limb of a Body – a living, throbbing Mystical Body. Being part of the Church automatically means part of You. >> Dear Lord, let me care for souls – my own and others. No more of this nonsense that saving souls is only the work of Your priests. No more of this apathy which considers that my apostolic work is over once I’ve thrown a few dollars to the Missions or on the plate. Let me be vitally concerned to know You. And then let me radiate Your goodness to my family and my neighbours and the world”.
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 03:09 PM EST
To conclude (and I am leaving it at this), any crisis in the Church is the making of selfish or misguided men and women, not of the Church itself which is, after all, composed of men and women who believe in Jesus Christ and the power of His Resurrection. The vociferous anti-Church ones are those who get media attention; the quiet ones remain lambs sheltered by the Supreme Shepherd and prefer to be as children of God instead of being ‘know-alls’. The NYT and ICentral need to decide if they are seeds on barren soil, spreading the creeping lies of Satan, or ones to grasp the shoots of Christ’s teachings and through the power of their media, prosper in spreading Faith in Christ and His Church.
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 03:07 PM EST
(...more) Indeed, I acknowledge that I fail much in that respect; reading a little book “My Meditations on St. Paul” now and again, I constantly see how miserably I fail to live up to Paul’s teachings, though I try to live by Christ’s simple commandments: to love God first and then love my fellow men and women but often fail in both too. Yet, I ask the Holy Spirit to guide me and my sons in our daily lives and decisions. My trust and belief remains, despite my incredulity at some decisions of those in higher echelons of the RCC but I don’t see any of those as being good enough reason to leave the Church of Christ. Seeing the attendances at all-important RCC religious celebrations confirms that millions of others don’t either and why the main headline above by James O’Brien and ICentral’s editors is patently misleading. (more...)
eiriamach | Feb 13, 2011, 03:05 PM EST
As an update to what I wrote below about RCC's opposition to progress since Vatican II: the State of Iowa just rejected a proposal deceptively called "Religious Conscience Protection Bill," which would have allowed Iowans "to deny housing, employment or services to people whose marriages they disapprove of based on religious beliefs." The bill would have legalized discrimination against same-sex couples, mixed-religion heterosexual couples, atheists maybe? or any couple in a relationship that anyone could object to on religious grounds. According to the Des Moines Register, Danny Carroll of the Family Leader and Tom Chapman, executive director of the Iowa Catholic Conference, supported the bill: Carroll said, "Some of the reasons that we would support this legislation simply has to do with fundamental religious freedom." Chapman said, "Catholic organizations don't want to be forced to provide such services as adoption or counseling to same-sex married couples." Their ideas are not what the founders of the American republic had in mind when they protected religious freedom alongside separation of church and state. They did not intend for religious leaders to decide whom we can discriminate against. The founders expected them to realize that the price of their freedom of conscience would be respect for everyone else's equal freedom of conscience. Yeah, I know, "the Church is not a democratic organization." But the USA is, and I'd like it to stay that way. And I wish Ireland success in separating its state institutions from this political power called the Roman Catholic Church.
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 03:03 PM EST
Hard to disagree with eiriamach’s last post, indeed it is full of valid points. There is a difficulty in deciding which is better – the moral conscience of people or the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit. I should think the latter of course but so much of the so-called moral conscience is driven by popular materialistic matters and not the spiritual ones. It is the spiritual ones (of God) that many fail to grasp that are more important IMO. Perhaps those leaving the RCC are driven more by the popular choice, failing to grasp the spiritual ones. If so, then the priesthood today - by both religious and laity - is failing in delivering the spiritual messages of Christ and His Apostles and risks becoming more estranged of the very people it purports to serve. If people are leaving the RCC, it’s because the sowers’ seeds are falling on barren ground, not because of the sowers or Church itself. (More...)
eiriamach | Feb 13, 2011, 01:31 PM EST
Jacersagain, The papal commission was set up because Pope John XXIII believed in discussion, debate, dialogue, all working to achieve consensus by listening to the Holy Spirit when responding to problems in society. This vision that guided Vatican II--whatever you think of its outcomes--was a vastly different vision from the one I see in the church today. Vatican II affirmed the priesthood of the laity as well as the sacred commission of ordained priests. It gave the laity responsibility for transforming civil society in the image of the Savior. And the strengthening of moral sensitivity in secular institutions, such as the press' investigations of corruption in religion and politics and the states' enacting civil rights and anti-child-abuse laws, might well be the result of that change! Against such signs of progress, a reaction has been building in the Church itself as well as in politics, as is seen in the USA today with Tea Party protests, a resurgence of bigotry, and incentives to undo our progress toward equality. Voice of the Faithful, an Irish group formed around the child abuse tragedies, reminds us of the responsibility of lay persons as envisioned by Vatican II: "The lay apostolate ... is a participation in the saving mission of the Church itself. Through their baptism and confirmation, all are commissioned to that apostolate by the Lord Himself" (Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity). So I ask again, in consideration of those who are leaving RCC, is there any possibility of the laity making structural reforms to ensure that the Church will follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the future?
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 11:05 AM EST
(...more) For the same reason, abortion is wrong in that it deliberately destroys a soul created by God as well as the unborn child, as it is for murder, where one kills off a soul as well as the victim's life. While people have a God-given right to choose, denying a soul to be created and the deliberate killing of a soul are not the choices that God wants us to make. This all applies only if one believes in God. For all that, we now hear of a relaxation of the ruling by the Church against artificial contraception using condoms, which leaves many Catholics confused: Why should it be ok for some to use them but not others, or all?
jacersagain | Feb 13, 2011, 11:03 AM EST
eiriamach’s reference to Humanae Vitae and the effect that had on the generation of the time is quite true. In fact, in writing my post of 11th @ 3.25pm, I originally included the contraceptive pill as one of the lifestyle changes that affected Ireland and its Catholics but deleted it as I didn’t think including it was that big a reason – it was part of many other changes, as I finally posted. Personally, I initially looked upon the papal commission’s conclusions as a step in the right direction but then I accepted the Papal decision as being correct. Basically, the Pope decided that no one has the right to stop the creation of life by artificial means; the reason for that is that God gave men and women the facility to create a new soul, not just a new life, at the moment of conception and no one has the right to deny God’s purpose in giving us that facility. That is what the Church teaches, as I understand. (more..)
eiriamach | Feb 13, 2011, 09:22 AM EST
Semperfidelis, you're kidding yourself about the people who are leaving. You cannot paint them all with that broad brush-- that they are not willing to persist in "faith and hard work." It takes moral courage to follow your conscience into a decisive break with an institution that has shaped much of your life. But we need spiritual resources to live decently in this world, and the bishops are ignoring the Spirit given to guide the church in wisdom. What we do in this life to relieve suffering is redemptive, for everyone involved. Turning a blind eye to the abuse of children, mistreatment of women, and neglect of the poor leads anyone astray from salvation. "Semper fidelis" means ever faithful-- to what? To clerics who will not commit themselves to obey the law by reporting evidence of child abuse to police? To a cardinal "who will not be accountable," as Marie Collins says in the NYT article? CAN the laity make the structural changes necessary for them to remain with clear consciences when they've been staying with heavy consciences for so long? Will they be given any voice? RE the statistics given below: the drop-off in church attendance happened "soon after Vatican II ended," yes, but in direct response to Pope Paul VI's encyclical Humanae Vitae, 25/7/1968, rejecting V.II's papal commission conclusion that artificial birth control does not violate nature or scripture. Humanae Vitae condemned half the RCC laity to living in "sin" when they were trying to act morally, responsibly. They chose between loyalty to men and loyalty to conscience, and many left. Deja vu.
kickstar | Feb 12, 2011, 07:49 PM EST
Thank God this trash church is on the way out.
semperfidelis | Feb 12, 2011, 12:54 PM EST
There is no denying that the abuse that occured in the Church was and is horrific, a grave sin and crime. And just as bad as the abuse itself was the cowardly and feckless way it was (mis)handled by the powers that be in the church. That said, in my opinion, those who have turned their back on the church would have done so regardless, the sex abuse scandal is just one of many justifications/excuses for leaving. Being a " good Catholic", often takes faith and hard work, it isn't easy which is problematic for many these day. Personally I attended a Christian Brothers high school,and they were hard on us in many ways. But they gave me a great education that has served me well over the years. They were tough but not once was there ever even a hint of sexual misconduct by them. And when I got the paddle, I deserved it, being a smart ass myself.Maybe we were lucky.
bogsidebunny | Feb 12, 2011, 09:12 AM EST
It's true. The Irish have had enough of the hypocritical actions demonstrated by the Catholic Church. Incidently, hypocracy is a trait ingrained in Irish culture. Many of the young people reject the teachings and the marraige rate is dropping like a missel tossed out of a belfrey. The proper term for an Irish cohabitating couple is "partners".
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jacersagain | Feb 11, 2011, 03:28 PM EST
(...more) As a teenager, I used to attend 7 or 8am Mass so that I’d have ‘got Mass’ before heading off to play in my weekly 10am or 11am GAA matches. I remember the number of Masses in my old Dublin parish falling from 6 each Sunday morning to 5, then 4 and lower. By my late teens, I’d have to forego Mass, since the early masses were no longer, to play in my games (mea culpa)! In my present parish there are two Sunday Masses, excluding the Saturday evening Mass which satisfies the Catholic requirement. I see all three are pretty well attended, filling up to 75% of seats and always packed at Christmas, Easter and other Holy occasions such as First Communions, Confirmations, Advent and the Christmas Eve High Mass. Even daily Masses during Lent are well attended and one is always amazed at attendances at Funerals. Even marriages in a Catholic Church are rising again. That tells me that while church attendances may have fallen on Sundays, the Irish people have not turned their backs on the Church. The NYT and IrishCentral needs to be better informed and stop printing misleading headliners.
jacersagain | Feb 11, 2011, 03:25 PM EST
(...more) Church attendance in Ireland dropped off soon after Vatican II ended, as stated by James O’Brien above between 1972 and 2008. A certain change in lifestyles was occurring back then just after the liberalism of the 1960’s carried into the ‘70s and 80s. Amongst the big lifestyle changes were late-night discos on Saturdays, city centre shops being allowed to open on Sundays, horse racing on Sundays too and a great many other changes in Irish lifestyles. Church attendances fell off with these changes back then, not in recent times as a result of church scandals as alleged by the NYT. The 20- and 30-somethings of today are the children of those who fell away during that time. (more...)
BARNEYKX | Feb 11, 2011, 03:24 PM EST
is it any wonder industrial schools, christian brothers, perverted priests,bishops fathering sons
jacersagain | Feb 11, 2011, 03:23 PM EST
The great misleading thing about this headline is that, having claimed that Irish are turning their backs on the Church, the sub-heading and almost the whole article is about child abuse scandals. We’ve been through all this before and know where we all stand on that subject. So I’ll stick with the headline and show why I challenge its misleading claim. (More...)
CitizenWhy | Feb 11, 2011, 02:19 PM EST
To curranart ... I had cousins who tired to organize in the 60s to end the Christian Brothers abuse. They were labelled traitors, etc. Thank God the hold of a vicious clerical dictatorship is being broken. Of course the children of the elite were not subject to this abuse. That tells you something.
CitizenWhy | Feb 11, 2011, 02:16 PM EST
To JOHNTOBIN ... The Catholic Church is quite talented at self-mutilation. No so-called attack (that is, reporting the situation) from outside could ever match the church's passion to destroy itself.
CitizenWhy | Feb 11, 2011, 02:14 PM EST
The Catholic Church should never had any status in the Constitution. My Catholic Irish parents fought for a secular Republic, not the cozy club of politicos, clerics and bankers that the Irish people foolishly accepted as their masters.
FrankieJ | Feb 11, 2011, 10:57 AM EST
The catholic church and all religion is a big crutch. How does that saying go "Religion, the opium of the masses". They are repressive and controlling. Can you rememember a day when the collection plate was not run down the pews? Come on in, let us "guilt trip" you and then ask for your money. Gee, you wonder why anyone with a brain avoids church?
Gearoid4 | Feb 11, 2011, 08:51 AM EST
I concur wholeheartedly with those who express disgust with the past history of the Catholic Church in Ireland vis-a-vis the shameful sex abuse cases. But I stop short of throwing out the baby with the bath water. I still firmly believe that despite the sins which stain the human face of the church,divine guidance still steers the barque of St Peter. I am sure that the Church will be present in Ireland in a rejuvenated form long after such rags as the NYT have folded.
curranart | Feb 11, 2011, 06:35 AM EST
It wasnt just every Friday you got the hands or legs bate off you it was every friggen day, I was terrified to go into the christian brother school so I didnt,i bunked off every day. I can clearly remember shitting myself one day and ambling home ashamed for what I done all the boys and masters laughting at me, it wasnt just the brother that had me terrified,many of the plain clothes teachers were annimals towards us, everyone one of them kept a weapon about thier person and God didnt help you if you got out of line,my head was rapped every day with a stick of mahogany, the hands were slapped of me with a leather strap which has lead embedded at its tip, its was a chamber of horrors for us, one teacher would walk around the room with a long bamboo cane, bending it in front of us and swishing it in the air, you were afraid to breath and boy did it hurt when you were taken to the front of the class,they had no boundries if they took the notion you went home with great welts across your buttocks and manys a day I did. What really hurts is the fact that I see many of the people who punished and abused me out walking the streets. Once a week a particular priest came to the school,we were all terrified of him. If you got out of the line in the corridor whilst waiting to say confessions to him you were shoved back in by a stick weilding teacher, there was no escaping this weekly torment. I had night mares about the man, I was afraid to walk up the same street when I saw him comming.I carried what he did to me through out my life.I With some years of research behind me,I firmly believe that the abuse has been going on since early in medieval times,and that convents and other such wide spread childrens prisons were indeed concentration sex camps.
JOHNTOBIN | Feb 11, 2011, 06:19 AM EST
Another attack by the New York Times and Irish Central on the Catholic Church.These two publications must rub their hands together with glee when ever an opportunity comes along to attack the church.Its just an excuse for them to put the boot in.
DannyBoyG | Feb 11, 2011, 03:12 AM EST
I wonder how long it is going to take until we hear from Bill Donohue and the Catholic (Bush)-League? He will be telling us this is all made up and just another "hatchet" job from the NY Times. The real problem is that there is a REAL problem. We have all known that for a long time. But as long as the clergy have their defenders and plenty of people who look the other way and don't want to address the problem...this crooked and corrupt church will continue on it's merry way. It is indeed a very sad thing to watch and so many people have been hurt along the way.
Goosey68 | Feb 11, 2011, 12:17 AM EST
Forgive me father for I have sinned. It's been near 30 years since my last confession, these are my sins. Never missed it for a second ...does not stop me from yanking the heathen protestant's chain though :)
Advocate | Feb 10, 2011, 10:21 PM EST
Celibacy is a man-made doctrine which can be found nowhere in Scripture! It is against the very Nature of mankind as Yahweh/God made us. This man-made tradition has caused much harm and has been of no benifit to the church (sic). Yahweh/God is obviously very upset with us and We the SHEEPle are about to pay a big price for our continued silence against every form of evil. Read Rev. 17...
LouGuyt | Feb 10, 2011, 06:23 PM EST
I think it has taken a long, long time for people to wake up to this heinous thing which seems to have been going on forever. And are we surprised?? Enforced celibacy is certainly not wise. And the church hierarchy has still not repealed this law. The law was not made for any religious reason but for property and money. The Vatican seems to be all about money and a pompous lifestyle. Who needs it? I have faith in the teachings of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the prophets, the apostles, and others. I have always questioned edicts of the church.
ianwalsh | Feb 10, 2011, 06:17 PM EST
I grew up in Dublin and saw the absolute hypocrisy of the catholic religion,I quit it as soon as I could,but I am still dealing with the guilt that was shoved down our throats daily.I for one think the ultimate revenge would be for the entire country to vote the religion out of Ireland.
eiriamach | Feb 10, 2011, 05:53 PM EST
I should have added that I've seen what I described in the US, not so much in Ireland.
eiriamach | Feb 10, 2011, 05:51 PM EST
Maybe you're right Peterson and CER1940. But in the attitudes of clergy, I see indifference to the people who are leaving. Traditionalist priests and bishops (the ones who like the "elitist and sexist" language of the new missal, for example) seem very happy to have "their" church back from the path it took after Vatican II. I don't think they care that millions are leaving because of scandals and too much from-the-top-down authority. That's how they seem to want the church--small, with only obedient laity who all think whatever the bishop tells them to think. I think that they will ignore, insult, silence, and drive away anyone who has different views from theirs.
CER1940 | Feb 10, 2011, 03:07 PM EST
peterson says "Leaving the Catholic Church will not cure the problem. Pressuring the Church, will wake up those who make decisions, will !!" Until the heirarchy of the RCC becomes responsable to the laity, staying in the church will not solve anything. Under their feudal system the wickedness is self perpetuating.
peterson | Feb 10, 2011, 01:47 PM EST
Leaving the Catholic Church will not cure the problem. Pressuring the Church, will wake up those who make decisions, will !!
glorybe1929 | Feb 10, 2011, 01:30 PM EST
It's like the Muslim Brotherhood. They want to have religion decide what's good for the people in politics. There should not be "any" religion in the affairs of State. Religion is a personal thing that grounds your character, whether good or bad. The Constitution of the country should make the decisions not the Religious. We should be able, in a free society, to determine what is best for us. We the people, make our decisions based on our Constitution,not the government that is based on religious beliefs, or whatever. If the Country has no Constitution then one should be made that all agree on.The division of church and state is a must, in any free society.
cillowen | Feb 10, 2011, 01:27 PM EST
With a..lickers like Dolan and co, its understandable
HorsesInMdstrm | Feb 10, 2011, 11:26 AM EST
@RobinOCork - I think the NY Times would like us to buy their papers. But what I'd like us all to be is ethical and fair in our lives without worrying that some mythical creature will hit us with a thunderbolt. Fear of a crispy afterlife is a lousy reason to be a good person.
mayoman | Feb 10, 2011, 11:19 AM EST
RobinOCork: Why blame the messenger for the message? The facts are what they are. And smearing the New York Times for reporting the truth benefits no one.
RobinOCork | Feb 10, 2011, 11:06 AM EST
LET'S ALL GET USED TO IT. Every self-styled "intellectual elite" media--especially in and from New York--has a quiet mission to undermine and marginalize any religion that would help lift us up. Wouldn't that make you wonder how they'd all like us to be?
Intercessor | Feb 10, 2011, 11:06 AM EST
The following (above) quote really befuddled me, as I had not heard about this new Canon Law. "Last August the Catholic Church changed the Canon Law. It is now impossible for Catholics to leave the church." What is Holy "Motha" Church going to do to stop us from leaving. (Question mark is broken..... mea culpa!) Will She condemn us to hell where we will spend eternity with "masturbators" and Pedophile Priests, Nuns and bishops, or is the latter category "automatically forgiven" because of their elevated, holy, clerical status. Or, will we defectors be condemned to "burn in Purgatory" for centuries, unless our relatives buy indulgences (under the table) or pay to have Masses said for us, which will be "outsourced" to India, where they don't have a "Priest Shortage." If in fact the Church made a Canon Law, which forbids many of us to leave, I think that She's kind of late, as evidenced by empty pews. In regard to growing up with the overburden of the Catholic School System. I consider myself "A Survivor," and I have genuine pity on ANY child, anywhere on the face of the earth, which is forced to grow up in traditional "Catholic fear and GUILT," rather than experiencing the true blessings and love of the Lord. Statistically, I've been told that 80-85% of those, who actually end up graduating from Catholic School, never darken a Catholic Church door, again, and above all, they don't put their children through that level of detritus. That's the good news. The bad news is that some never get over the mental, emotional, spiritual and physical abuse of growing up in a Catholic School! It's time that it stops! Don't torture another generation.
dennisc | Feb 10, 2011, 10:51 AM EST
I think it is very important to note that the Irish people have not turned ther back on Jesus Christ! The Roman Catholic Church leadership has done that by their many abuses. I don't think that Jesus would be recognize his church in its current form. To really change what is going on in the Roman Catholic Church may require a revolution!
antoman | Feb 10, 2011, 09:45 AM EST
It used be that you could walk round to the parish priests house and he'd give you the remains of his dinner.But that all stopped when the government here issued free cheese to the people.Not that we was all eating it mind..some of us used it to bung up our earholes.