80 Comments

• seanomelb | Dec 07, 2012, 06:15 PM EST

  The crosses wer installed by British triumphalism to show who is boss,therefore making it an object of ridicule. BTW Dafydd is not represented on the 'apron". TOrytory the alliance won their set with cross community support.The council made a democratic decision passed by the majority and the orange bully boys attack the offices and homes of alliance members. Of course burning homes and knocking on doors and murdering those inside is a well known orange 'modus operandi"

• puffin | Dec 07, 2012, 02:46 PM EST

  I despair for my own people sometimes,however a lot of these people live at the margins of society,with no hope,and a political process that has as yet given any material or social benefits,I have a feeling that this sort of behaviour will be replicated in other parts of Europe before very much longer,Not that that is an excuse.

• seamus60 | Dec 07, 2012, 08:35 AM EST

  ToryTory. Its in the best interests of both SF and the DUP to keep their voter base. Dictaterships will always play the sectarian card to secure it.

• IrelandNorth | Dec 07, 2012, 07:45 AM EST

  Hmmm! Carlisle Circus comes to City Hall! RedBranch! How's about 6 - 26 - or 32 days per year? (Or for a percentage of the year that their population is a percentage of the island). seanomelb! The "butcher's apron" is the Saint George's Cross of England only. Not the Jacques du Unione of England, Scotand and Ireland (subsequently NI). Leave poor ol' Jock, Paddy, Billy (or Dafyd) out of it. Curitiba! Another solution would be to offer any subsequently convicted disorderes a tour of duty with HM Forces in Afghanistan to prove their 'loyalty' with the Taliban, thereby sublimating their surplus testosterone.

• ToryTory | Dec 07, 2012, 07:15 AM EST

  >>>Excellent point. These thuggish supremacist somehow always manage to be self defeating despite having the overwhelming majority of resources and state actors on their side.<<< No it's a dumb point. There are no 'wavering supporters' - nationalists will either, as a general rule, vote SF or SDLP. That's a given. The real political controversy, insofar as parties are concerned, is the Alliance Party. The Alliance garners its support from protestant areas; it gained a shock win over the DUP in East Belfast at the last general election, ousting Peter Robinson - their majority is a slim one. I very much doubt they'll keep that seat given their perceived (unjustly in my view) betrayal of the protestant vote.

• ToryTory | Dec 07, 2012, 05:43 AM EST

  The first three replies encapsulate what I call 'Tory's Principle': give a pedestal to a moron, and he will preach.

• curtisjohnson | Dec 06, 2012, 09:15 PM EST

  "The fools out rioting have gone beyond the call of duty in making their beloved SF look good to wavering supporters." Excellent point. These thuggish supremacist somehow always manage to be self defeating despite having the overwhelming majority of resources and state actors on their side.

• curtisjohnson | Dec 06, 2012, 09:12 PM EST

  "Why would the devolved Parliament of NI, a constituent member of the United Kingdom, fly the flag of a foreign nation on a State building?" Because the UK is not a nation but a contrived and forced union based upon a type of proto-boshevism. The UK mainland should be broken up into at least 5 different countries (possibly 6 as Londonistan could be its own distinct nation at this point - lol).

• seanomelb | Dec 06, 2012, 05:53 PM EST

  torytory seems to forget that Texas is occoupied Mexico.I wonder who the dullard is now.

• ToryTory | Dec 06, 2012, 03:42 PM EST

  Mortimer74, are you special? Why would the devolved Parliament of NI, a constituent member of the United Kingdom, fly the flag of a foreign nation on a State building? Wise up and stop being dumb. Next I hear the Texas State Legislature will fly the Mexican flag so, you know, they show humility in the face of those Mexican migrants by honouring their [foreign] country. Some you people need actually think.

• ToryTory | Dec 06, 2012, 03:37 PM EST

  Give a dais to a moron and he will preach. Looking through these comments I see a hodgepodge of chimerical beliefs that are a testimony to forlorn hope than reality. For example, all you dullards who think Scotland will secede or NI will united with the ROI need a reality check. There is no evidence whatsoever that Scotland will secede - all the evidence suggests it will emphatically reject the motion. Further, to all you dullards who think they'll opt for 'devo max' - think again. The plebiscite is a simple 'in' or 'out' - that is all. There is no 'devo max' option. For all you dullards that think - and I quite from one especial person - that there's an 'inexorable march towards unification in Ireland' - think again. The last poll conducted put the figure at 7% for pro-secession. Not a particularly good augur. If anything, as 'time marches on' the prospect of NI joining the ROI becomes ever more remote.

• ancavker | Dec 06, 2012, 11:22 AM EST

  Gearoid: I would only correct you one one point. The area did not include the biggest area to include the most Protestants/ Unionists, bu rather took areas that had the boundary commission been really implemented never should have been included. Those areas are Fermanagh, Tyrone, south Armagh, and, west Derry.

• seamus60 | Dec 06, 2012, 10:51 AM EST

  Curtis. Spot on. How many people of the Protestant faith killed or seriously maimed by plastic bullets or police batons. If there were that would be wrong too. The fools out rioting have gone beyond the call of duty in making their beloved SF look good to wavering supporters.

• curtisjohnson | Dec 05, 2012, 10:46 PM EST

  If this were an indigenous/Catholic protest, it would have been met with automotic weapons, indefinite imprisonment without trial, followed by torture, show trials, and "convictions."

• Smyrnian | Dec 05, 2012, 09:28 PM EST

  Time to fold their flag and go home and live like good, non-colonizing neighbours!

• Curitiba | Dec 05, 2012, 07:13 PM EST

  I must admit I feel a bit responsible for all this. After all, it's my tax money which is paying the dole money and public sector wages of this bunch of dossers and enabling them to carry on with this boolsheet, instead of emigrating to Britain, Australia and America to find a real job instead of making a nuisance of themselves. Everyone else in Ireland is having to emigrate, why are they allowed to keep sucking at the public teat?

• Mortimer74 | Dec 05, 2012, 05:58 PM EST

  Gearoid4, back of the net. Veracity matched only by eloquence. Game over.

• seanomelb | Dec 05, 2012, 05:30 PM EST

  The belfast council in a majority decision voted to display the butchers apron on 17 days of the year. Democracy at work

• Gearoid4 | Dec 05, 2012, 02:09 PM EST

  Sorry, Tory, old boy but I possibly know as much if not more than you about British politics. I have closely studied it enough over time. I know that "northern" Ireland is described as a "home nation" but calling something by a particular name does not make it so. It does not have the criteria to aspire to the grand name of a nation or country. It is indubitably a part of another country Ireland that was robbed of her true nationhood by the partitioning of her land by a foreign colonial power. In the north, what constitutes a "country" is nothing more than the biggest area within the ancient Irish province of Ulster that could be administered for the benefits of the descendants of the original settlers from the Plantation of Ulster in the 17th century. The border is totally unnatural and slices up whole hinterlands, villages and townlands without regard for their integrity. Practically all the place-names within "northern" Ireland owe their derivation to the Irish language which reigned supreme there for 1000-1,500 years. Now language is one of the hallmarks of a country, and thus this reality makes it's cultural bedrock little different from the rest of Ireland.

• RedBranch | Dec 05, 2012, 12:33 PM EST

  Any of those predicting a united Ireland wish to comment on how may days a year they would approve the flying of the Union Jack from Belfast City Hall AFTER unification...

• myhomenj | Dec 05, 2012, 12:15 PM EST

  Another page for the history books. another movie in the making. Good luck & God save Ireland

• ancavker | Dec 05, 2012, 11:05 AM EST

  tory/tory: Scotland may notbe leaving right away, but they will be going. I am in Scotland often on business, it is so nice to tsee that they fly the Cross Of St Andrew, very attractive flag in my opinion. Business in Scotland is not opposed to secession as much as you might think. And even the many Scots who plan to vote no, od want devo max. And it will be coming. Too bad Ireland does not have a Mr. Salmond very skilled politician. Once devo max comes, it iwll only be a matter of time until no more UK.

• kinvara7 | Dec 05, 2012, 09:54 AM EST

  Thank you, Towngate. It is a matter for Britain to decide what to call their flag. However, it is amazing how many British people get it wrong and repeat what was in your earlier message. I hope the information from the Flag Institute has helped you in this regard.

• IrelandNorth | Dec 05, 2012, 08:55 AM EST

  Where's "Orange Lily" when we needed her? She could hang by her ankles from the precipice of City Hall and show off her union jack molly bloomers.

• sully1167 | Dec 05, 2012, 08:53 AM EST

  It's a shame most Irish in the republic, don't feel as patriotic about their country as these loyalists do about theirs. Mobs should be protesting like this in Dublin against the government and the EU.

• Towngate | Dec 05, 2012, 08:42 AM EST

  kinvara7: we are all in your debt, sir, and are pleased to note you - as an Irishnman - are complying so Loyally with what their Lordships at the Admiralty are telling you to do and think!

• darragh S | Dec 05, 2012, 07:36 AM EST

  Quick to the lear jet, till it all calms down again.

• kinvara7 | Dec 05, 2012, 06:57 AM EST

  @Towngate: The following is taken from The Flag Institute: “It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that ‘the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag’.”

• IrelandNorth | Dec 05, 2012, 06:48 AM EST

  Bit of an overreaction for an amicable compromise! What would they do if Irish democracy broke out? This Dubliner proposes following motions: Choose both at half mast for percentage representation or choose neither - Choose each togther or alternately - Choose EU or US flags, or British royal standard and/or Vatican/Holy See emblem - Choose pre-1800 union 'jack' (ie from King James/Jacobite, the original 'Brit') (ie sans le croix du Saint Patrice!) - Choose the Union Jill (ie union jack in Irish colours), with a French flag in reverse order for a republic of England) - Choose Ulster or Belfast city flags. If choosing existing union jack, fly on following days: 29th Feb (or 30th if leap year) - 31st of Apr/Jun/Sept/Nov - 32nd Jan/Mar/May/Jul/Aug/Oct/Dec. (NB previous post not mine!)

• IrelandNorth | Dec 04, 2012, 10:01 PM EST

  Hey, in case you haven't checked your Rand-McNally recently, you're living on the island of Ireland. Can you say Ireland?? I se you are very fascist about you belief that you are in Britain, but so sorry you lose. Britain was kindly asked to leave our soil during a scrap-up in 1776 et. al., Now Brits & Poles & Italian & Irish & dozens of others live here under a Stars & Stripes banner. Haven't had a town hall stormed in NY or SF to fly a Union Jack recently. I realize yu'all see it differently. Good luck . India, Iraq, South Africa, Kenya & Uganda & dozens of other previously overrun countries see it differently from you.

• aloistmartin | Dec 04, 2012, 07:02 PM EST

  I don't mind other guys dancing with my girl That's fine, I know them all pretty well But I know sometimes I must get out in the light Better leave her behind with the kids, they're alright The kids are alright Sometimes, I feel I gotta get away Bells chime, I know I gotta get away And I know if I don't, I'll go out of my mind Better leave her behind with the kids, they're alright The kids are alright I know if I go things would be a lot better for her I had things planned, but her folks wouldn't let her I don't mind other guys dancing with my girl That's fine, I know them all pretty well But I know sometimes I must get out in the light Better leave her behind with the kids, they're alright The kids are alright Sometimes, I feel I gotta get away Bells chime, I know I gotta get away And I know if I don't, I'll go out of my mind Better leave her behind with the kids, they're alright The kids are alright

• aloistmartin | Dec 04, 2012, 06:56 PM EST

  What Me Worry :)

• barneyjo | Dec 04, 2012, 06:50 PM EST

  @stephendoyle - Again, agreed, and maybe sooner than you think!! There are a good many Loyalists this side of the irish sea who are in denial over the efficacy of the vote for scottish independence; although I dont think it will get to full cessation from the rest of the UK, it will be more along the lines of an enhanced "Devo Max" model, at least initially. And a fragmentation of the Union is certainly a potential game changer vis a vis Ireland. There is no political will to enforce a sovereign model on the Unionist North-east, so therefore what is left is the further evolution of what is starting to happen; a federal model which allows for two regional assemblies and an all-ireland forum to formulate island wide policy. And dont give up; you might just live long enough to see Jeffery Donaldson lauded as the "Grand Old Man of Unionism" in any such assembly :) !!

• barneyjo | Dec 04, 2012, 06:17 PM EST

  Maybe if you you have less "Drumbeating and flag waving in the good old U.S. of a mereflow you may have a better society.

• merefalow | Dec 04, 2012, 06:02 PM EST

  seems most of the troubles in the world have been caused by religions and patriotism ,when you have to fight injustice,discrimination,despotism,intolerance,then they come in handy,but it is so easy to beat a drum,wave a flag and whip people into war like frenzy,if equality and justice have been restored to a degree in NI then ,what should matter,is jobs,tourism,getting on with living,instead of fear,intimidation,war torn towns,death and destruction and waving bloody flags of what ever color,cease the provocation of marches,drum beating and arogant triumphalism and let the young people of NI grow up in a normal enviroment in a country where there is room and equality for all,and no weeping children and widows.

• Mortimer74 | Dec 04, 2012, 05:47 PM EST

  Bye bye Tory Tory, bye bye union jack, bye bye partition. As an Englishman I say good riddance. There is an inexorable march, a democratic and political momentum that will consign these bigots to the dustbin of history. Ireland will be re-united and I will raise a glass of Bushmill's.

• Mortimer74 | Dec 04, 2012, 05:45 PM EST

  The simple and sensible solution would be to add another flag pole and fly the British and Irish flags side by side every day. That would show respect for both the unionist and Nationalist traditions in Belfast.

• Ron | Dec 04, 2012, 05:25 PM EST

  As a Brit of Protestant background who really has no loyalties towards the UK anymore, I think it's a dumb, provocative act to discard the Union Jack in such a sensitive region as Ulster. Leave things as they are instead of provoking fights. While we're at it, why continue maintaining the Orange Walk marches on 12th July? Dump that caricature and be consistent.

• seanomelb | Dec 04, 2012, 05:07 PM EST

  The PSNI?RUC sat on their hands and allowed the riot to continue. If it were a nationalist riot the water cannons would be out and people arrested under emergency powers act. ToryTory condones and condemns in the same breath.

• anglo-norman | Dec 04, 2012, 04:42 PM EST

  Democracy must be maintained & those Irish Loyalists must grow up & respect it rather than trying to intimidate.

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 04:39 PM EST

  @barneyjo - well said and I agree 100 percent. I look forward where we can look back at these times and see just how far we have come. And a long way it is we have come. True we still have a ways to go and a few more " vacations" to take as you put it. But the die is cast and I might not live to see it but a United Ireland will happen.....

• olovely | Dec 04, 2012, 04:38 PM EST

  Memo: neither side won or can win. Power is shared. Neither side will lord it over the other with symbols, flags, parades or triumphalism. It's quite simple.

• barneyjo | Dec 04, 2012, 04:34 PM EST

  @stephendoyle - You used the word pesemistic, I used the word "pragmatic"; there is difference.Being pragmatic means knowing the difference between what is desirable and what is possible at any given time. The "be fruitful and multiply" theory is no longer valid. I have outlined some reasons earlier and I stand by them. Anecdotally, when you hear about catholic couples deferring a further attempt at pregnancy for a year or more, just so's they can have that foreign holiday, you know there has been a major shift in priorities. Dont get me wrong, I am in full agreement with your view on how far the nationalists in NI have come, and from such a low baseline. I myself am the manifestation of that journey; in middle management in local government, at a grade I should have reached 10yrs before I did. I could be bitter and angry, but that would mean that my oppressors win out by making me into something that I was never intended to be; bitter and spiteful towards "the other tribe" No, the real victory will come by being more magnanimous and generous to show that decency and fairness trumps "might is right" every time. True, no longer a Protestant land for Protestant people. That still does not mean that you can easily frogmarch a rump of several hundred thousand people into a new political dispensation on the island of Ireland without their buy-in. I am content to wait for the dawn of the "New Republic" where Catholic, Protestant and dissenter all have more reasons to be in rather than out!!

• WoundedKnee | Dec 04, 2012, 04:28 PM EST

  Great to hear the Belfast accent again after all these years. Prettiest accent in Ireland.

• Towngate | Dec 04, 2012, 03:50 PM EST

  maireadinmelb: A statement of fact in a Comment is not an 'argument'. The Union Flag is not a 'Jack' as they are only flown from the Jack-staff at at the Stern of a sailing vessel. People respond to flags in personal and particular ways. ~~~ Lord Kitchener sailing down the Nile encountered a enemy French tricolour flying from a makeshift riverside encampment. He sent a message that he was honour and duty-bound to attack the camp so long as it was flying. The French lowered the flag. Kitchener sailed by - the French raised the Flag again. Outcome: no blood spilt,and everyone was happy. Those who voted in Belfast should remember their wee Council is a small part part of the United Kingdom whose proud identity is incorporated in The Union Flag.

• Fitzyboy | Dec 04, 2012, 03:44 PM EST

  "The vote was 28-21 with the vote along Unionist/Nationalist lines except for the centrist Alliance Party who came up with the 17 day compromise." It's all St. Matthews fault, let's go attack the Church that bares his name.

• seamus60 | Dec 04, 2012, 03:39 PM EST

  ToryTory. Why should the flag be flown 365 days a year ,unless loyalists in the North think they are more british than the brits.

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 03:33 PM EST

  @ Tory Tory - I am 55 years old and dreamed of a United Ireland my whole life. I have been disgusted by actions by the british military in NI my whole life. I have supported efforts to unite Ireland my whole life. Yes, I guess I am a bigot for a United Ireland.

• ToryTory | Dec 04, 2012, 03:22 PM EST

  You can be Irish without being a bigot, unfortunately you're an Irish bigot, Stephen.

• ToryTory | Dec 04, 2012, 03:20 PM EST

  Gearoid (clearly an American as you know next to nothing about British politics) - in common parlance, NI is a Home Nation along with the other constituent members of the UK. And a) Scotland won't be seceding and b) there won't be 'strong devolution' - the referendum is a simple 'in' or 'out' one.

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 03:20 PM EST

  @ Tory Tory LOL, no , evidently I am IRISH. And proud of it

• ToryTory | Dec 04, 2012, 03:17 PM EST

  Oh bore off Stephen, evidently a bigot.

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 03:14 PM EST

  @Tory Tory - We come a long way from the "troubles". Such a misleading and rosy term for years of british oppression and suppression. The reason why we have come so far is the british governments realization that they cannot hold a people and a land hostage. Slowly at firt we have seen changes in NI. And this taking down of this oppressive rag that flew at city hall is a small but dramatic sign of change. No loyalist ever thought they would see this happen.

• ToryTory | Dec 04, 2012, 03:05 PM EST

  No it isn't Stephen, but we've progressed since the dark days of the Troubles. You can't keep wailing about the errors of the past whilst simultaneously trying to build an harmonious future. The fact of the matter is that the flag has been flown since the inception of the Assembly, to change it now stinks of politicism, and a banal appeal to 'times are moving on' is a battered cliche with no substance whatsoever.

• maireadinmelb | Dec 04, 2012, 03:05 PM EST

  Towngate - your argument is ridiculous! teh union jack represents oppression and torture! The two faced british antics since the act of union was enacted.

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 03:05 PM EST

  @Tory Tory - the events going on in Ireland, especially in the North do not support your "polls". I see a different wind blowing in, a fresher wind blowing, an IRISH wind. Get used to the scent, it'll be here for a very long time......

• Gearoid4 | Dec 04, 2012, 03:04 PM EST

  NI is not a "nation" ToryTory and the Scottish will either secede from or get strong devolutionary powers(just short on Independence.and a stepping stone to it)within the UK in 2014 The unionists are on the wrong side of history and will get numerically weaker. The so called "unionist" tory party does not care a jot about the part of Ireland under British jurisdiction and is more concerned with the English home counties. The unionists must adapt to the changing numerical, cultural and social changes and stop basing their outlook on old certainties which have long disappeared.

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 02:58 PM EST

  @Tory Tory - Kind of different when the shoes on the other foot now isn't it? When it was up and causing tension for the Nationalists it was alright them? Used as a sign of prejudice and bigotry buy loyalists was ok in the past? The only moronic thing is to fly it at all. Times are changing, for some it is better and some worse. I am in the "better" group thank you very much.......

• ToryTory | Dec 04, 2012, 02:56 PM EST

  Stephen, at the last poll - a few years ago - only 7% of those polled in NI wanted to secede from the Union. Believe, NI isn't going anywhere. The sad facts of the matter is that men comprising the rump of the republican parties are men of a bygone generation - they're dinosaurs. As time goes on, NI will cement itself as a culturally rooted home nation of the UK, despite the duplicity of Sinn Fein or (to a much much lesser extent) the SDLP.

• ToryTory | Dec 04, 2012, 02:52 PM EST

  Hardshoe83 - yeah right. Undoubtedly an American, probably from Boston, surname 'Murphy', thinks he's Irish.

• ToryTory | Dec 04, 2012, 02:50 PM EST

  Completely boneheaded decision by the SDLP & Sinn Fein - they've unnecessarily stoked animosity and ire over a damn flag; fostered unnecessary tension. Ultimately, for what? To massage their own prejudices and bigotry? The flag wasn't bothering anybody and by taxing it politically the nationalists have created division within NI. What a moronic thing to do.

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 12:59 PM EST

  And may it be another hundred years before we have another vote! And Brits, as you are pulling out of Ireland, take this gang of thugs with you. I am sure they'll have plenty to protest in London....

• Mortimer74 | Dec 04, 2012, 12:42 PM EST

  Yeah, bye bye Towngate!

• Towngate | Dec 04, 2012, 12:16 PM EST

  THE UNION FLAG incorporates the cross of St Patrick, representing the entire island of Ireland. A flag which has flown continuously for over a hundred years has been lowered by the democratic Vote of the City Council Chamber. That can change at the next election, remember!

• hardshoe83 | Dec 04, 2012, 12:11 PM EST

  Seriously, what's the matter with these people? I'm protestant and so embarassed by what these people are doing. The union jack does not belong in Ireland. Isn't it about time British rule ended? Irish land should not belong to England. Yes I'm a protestant, and NOT a loyalist. Brits get out and take your union jack with you.

• RedBranch | Dec 04, 2012, 12:05 PM EST

  Seems from the photo they're having a good natured day out. And there may even be some multi-racial action with the fellow in the yellow hat, wouldn't get that at a GAA match in South Armagh!

• Mortimer74 | Dec 04, 2012, 11:54 AM EST

  pilib04, agreed - as should the fact that the PSNI allowed these thugs to destroy cars, injure employees and attack the building (and a church, I understand). The police response was too little too late.

• pilib04 | Dec 04, 2012, 11:42 AM EST

  All this discussion here is nice. Same with that on other blogs. Fact is, the decision has been made by the Belfast Council (29-21 I believe). The British flag will be flown on 18 specified days throughout the year. The rest of the time there will be no flag-flying from the Council. You win some, you lose some and then in this case, you compromise. Good job Alliance, Sinn Fein and SDLP.

• pilib04 | Dec 04, 2012, 11:38 AM EST

  David Forde's criticism of the UUP and DUP and the way they orchestrated the riots, should be grounds for an investigation. No surprise here, when Loyalists lose they resort to street violence. The surprise is the active participation of the DUP and UUP in organizing the demonstrations.

• Mortimer74 | Dec 04, 2012, 10:33 AM EST

  As an Englishman, I am delighted to see the inexorable march of democracy in the north of Ireland. "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall."

• Mortimer74 | Dec 04, 2012, 10:03 AM EST

  Honestly I think they should fly the Flag of Ulster until the mess is sorted out.

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 09:58 AM EST

  @barneyjo - I have not reached the pessimistic point in nationalism that you are at. I remember the days from the 70's where the Catholics couldn't get a street name changed. Now look, we have a sign of oppression being taken down. Laddie, how can you be a pessimist in such times? The days of the "thin red line", "sun never setting on the empire" are long gone. And you mentioned that the Nationalists were hit harder in the recession. Well let me tell you if the Nationalists are spending more time at home, surely as the sun rises there is a hell of a lot more breeding going on..........

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 09:45 AM EST

  stephendoyle - and you would be wrong to make such an assumption about which "tribe" I belong to. Born, raised (and suffered) in the Nationalist community, but no longer. It would be fair to say that I subscribe to the pragmatic wing of Nationalism and prefer to weigh up fact along with emotion. And when you have several family members who are all teachers in Catholic Primary Schools who are telling me that Catholic Families are way more "nuclear" than in previous generations (due no doubt to the increased levels of birth control ) then my personal view stands until I am corrected. I also have the evidence of the numbers of Catholic Schools (particularly in rural areas) that are or which have closed because enrollments had fallen.

• lecorri | Dec 04, 2012, 09:37 AM EST

  Loyalists REALLY need to get over this. Here in the states we are having to give up things like Christmas trees, etc. Its just the way it is these days. We share this planet with others who don't share our views, religion, etc.

• Joe Kelsall | Dec 04, 2012, 09:30 AM EST

  The flying of the 'Union Jack' is an ctof triumphalism!

• Wexfordman | Dec 04, 2012, 08:50 AM EST

  On the point made on birthrates,if u are going by the last census in the 6 counties, is flawed asin many ways such as that anyperson who put no religion down were put in the unionist catogory if though most of people who that are nationalist

• stephendoyle | Dec 04, 2012, 08:40 AM EST

  barneyjo- from your comment I see which side of the fence, or in this case wall you are on. But answer me this- would you have ever thought in your lifetime they would have voted to NOT fly the union jack over the city hall? I thought not. The times they are a changing, like it or not......

• barneyjo | Dec 04, 2012, 08:33 AM EST

  @stephendoyle - to correct you on two points. 1) The Catholic/ Nationalist Birthrate has fallen right off and is now only marginally higher than the Protestant Average. 2) Just as many (if not more) Nationalists are leaving NI to find work elsewhere;statistically more Nationalists have been affected by the implosion of the construction sector because more were employed in it. So its not likely that the Unionists will be "out voted" into an all Ireland Republic any time soon. Add to that also the influx of ethnic minorities, many of whom are catholic, are strictly apolitical and as such have not tribal allegiances.

• barneyjo | Dec 04, 2012, 08:19 AM EST

  I agree with olovely. Fly both flags if a flag is to be flown.In time thru immigration and higher birth rates N.I. will be united with Ireland. But if it makes the minority feel better fly their flag until that day next to the tri color.....

• olovely | Dec 04, 2012, 08:03 AM EST

  In Dublin crowds gathered to watch the Christmas lights be turned on; in Belfast they gathered to fight 1690. Which is really the bigger basket case? Is triumphalism necessary 365 days a year or their heads explode? This was pathetic. If they MUST fly the flag every day let them fly the Irish flag concurrently. They share their society after all.