Irish Defense Minister Alan Shatter, who is Jewish, has been accused of being prejudiced against the Catholic Church this week over his alleged refusal to allow the state's army to provide a guard of honour for a religious procession during the recent International Eucharistic Congress in Dublin.
According to the Irish Examiner, members of the Irish Defense Forces have regularly taken part in religious events throughout the State, but this is a tradition that may have finally changed in pursuit of a more secular society and in the wake of the abuse crisis.
A spokesperson for the Department of Defence told the Journal that a request had been submitted by the Eucharistic Congress seeking the Defense Forces’ participation in a religious procession.
Limerick Fianna Fail minister Willie O’Dea, a former Irish defense minister who resigned in the wake of findings during a controversial high court case, accused minister Shatter of 'blind prejudice' in blocking the army from taking part.
An army spokesperson reportedly told The Irish Catholic this week: 'The department was not in a position to approve such involvement as military participation (in the parade) was not considered appropriate.'
Criticizing Minister Shatters decision The Irish Catholic wrote: 'The unprecedented move has raised fears that religious events around the country, where members of the Defence Forces have traditionally played an important role, will become 'no-go' events for military personnel. It will also increase suspicion among people of faith that the Coalition is increasingly hostile towards Catholics.'
Minister O’Dea added that he believed the request from the organizers of the congress should have been granted.
'It demonstrates a strange petty-mindedness by Mr Shatter, which I must say does not surprise me. His response to the request seems like one of blind prejudice and his reaction is totally inappropriate. He should now give a proper explanation why this decision was taken. The army have participated in Church ceremonies since the foundation of the State, irrespective of what Church was involved.
'There has been this tradition, and now we are told that such participation by the Defence Forces on major occasions like the eucharistic congress is suddenly inappropriate if Mr Shatter says so,’ O’Dea said.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.sparticusnorth | Jul 28, 2012, 06:16 PM EDT
catholicabusesurvivorsni------the minister was right , the vastican has its own army to run around a pointless kabal gathering, the irish army are employed for the defense of the nation , the jewish minister should remind the vatican they colluded with hitler???
dingle999 | Jul 21, 2012, 01:44 AM EDT
any story with Willie O' Dea in it is quite simply bull**
bob mcbride | Jul 20, 2012, 10:48 PM EDT
Ken from Dublin. Please don't forget to take your medication before you get on the bus. You have some serious dillusionary visions! Idget!
eiriamach | Jul 20, 2012, 08:41 PM EDT
Am I just not seeing it, or has some editor removed deirdre emm's posting, the one I commented on? If I had quoted what deirdre emm wrote, would the editor have removed my comments as well? If it happens again, I'll try quoting the entire offensive posting, just to see how this editing works.
aloistmartin | Jul 20, 2012, 07:24 PM EDT
Any doubt as to why, despite all the Infidelity and Corruption Associated with Catholic Politicians like the Kennedy's; Wee still look to Them, for Confidence and Leadership ? Your no J.F.K. Barack Obama, Your not even John Kerry! And there are Bureaucrats in Dublin, who would sell The Irish Republic "Down The River" for the Dutch Bounty on Renegade Revolutionaries!
Messiah | Jul 20, 2012, 04:20 PM EDT
WhEn thE Dal Lama VsiEd irEland did thE Irish DEfEncE ForcEs providE a Guar of Honour? In acual fact would IrEland providE trough it's DEfEncE ForcEs a Guard of Honour for all rEligous Organisations likE thE Hari Krisna'a? Obviously not. So how can it bE PrEjudicE if thE Irish DEfEncE MinistEr brings thE allowancE for thE Catholic Church to Equality of provision of Guars of Honour REligions? AftEr all Non Cathlics stood to FrEE IrEland from British rulE!
IrelandNorth | Jul 20, 2012, 08:38 AM EDT
Minister Shatter carries Irish Government Department portfolios for Justice, Equality AND Defence - two of which are highly sensitive! How advisable is this? One son of an ex-Irish Army Private Kelly, (killed in action by IRA friendly fire), was used as a political pawn to sabotage NI's DFM's presidential campaign. How ethical was that? Min Shatter decorated Pte Kelly posthumeously recently. Why not field commission any other son of Pte Kelly's Snrs who is currently serving as a Military Police NCO? Pte Kelly Snr did a tour of duty with the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), some of whose members were killed by Israeli Defence (sic) Forces (IDF). Will Min Shatter be decorating them posthumeously? Senator David Norris's presidential campaign was sabotaged by discovery of documents apropos clemency letters he wrote to an Israeli Court for an ex-homosexual love convicted of raping a Palestinian boy. How did such discovery come about? An ex-Fianna Fail Min of Defence (Michael Smith) was quoted as saying that his Govt would not come out with their hands up to army deafness claims, using an armed robbery metaphor against honourable ex-servicemen pursuing legitimate claims. Irish Army participation in religious ceremonies of any religion is as inappropriate as British Army battle standards in Protestant Cathedrals in Dublin and around Ireland. Fine Gael Taoiseach of 1920/30's, John A. Costello, once said he was Roman Catholic first and an Irishman second. How did he become Taoiseach as a national of a foreign state? PS Some Jews are actually anti-Zionist!
Belphagor | Jul 20, 2012, 04:46 AM EDT
Kenfrom Dublin, iam certainly not Anti Catholic but i do think the RC church has a lot to answer for and as for Jews and Israel, I have no problems with them at all. It is clear however, that if someone voices their view which might not be the same view held by the rest of the sheep on here then it's quite acceptable to call them a racist, anti-semite or facist and hope that this sticks but its childish and shows how ignorant some people really are. The church has been hiding Paedo priests for too long, the state should distance themselves from the church as much as possible and I agree with Alan Shatter's decision on this. Bob McBride I don't have such an app and don't wish to have it either.
pilib04 | Jul 19, 2012, 06:38 PM EDT
Go raibh maith agat James Fitzpatrick for your comments against the anti-semitism that has been displayed on this board. Never apologize for providing a history lesson. Slan go foill, mo chara.
eiriamach | Jul 19, 2012, 04:34 PM EDT
It's interesting the people whom deirdre emm thinks you should hate along with Alan Shatter. Jeffrey Herf, writing "Fresh Air in Central Europe," in the New Republic (Aug 25, 2010 online), has this to say about Anette Kahane: "grew up in East Germany, now directs the Amadeu Antonio Foundation, an organization that promotes a multi-ethnic Germany. The foundation draws attention to and fights against instances of anti-Semitism as well as of racism against immigrants of all ethnicities and religions, whether the hatred comes from the neo-Nazi scene or Islamists. In the past few years, the foundation organized a much-discussed and even much more needed traveling exhibit about anti-Semitism in formerly anti-fascist East Germany." Barbara Lerner Spectre, another that deirdre wants you to hate, is an American philosopher, theologian, and author who founded Paideia, the European Institute for Jewish Studies. She has taught Jewish Studies in Israel and the USA and is a recipient of the Max Fisher Prize for Jewish Education in the Diaspora and several other honors for her work in education, anti-Semitism, and Judaism. I wonder why so many racists have targeted Irish Central lately! Do they think the Irish are as stupid as Glenn Beck? Are they planning to open up a KKK branch on O'Connell Street? What does deirdre emm and her tribe have to gain by stirring up hatred?
Belphagor | Jul 19, 2012, 04:30 PM EDT
In light of the Roman Catholic Church's role in child abuse and the Vatican's refusal to act appropiately since the revelations, is it any wonder that the church is losing support from traditional 'Catholics' the ordinary people just don't trust them anymore. It is right that the state distances itself from the RC church as much as possible. Unless this procession has received a threat from a terrorist group I don't see why the state should provide armed troops as a guard of honour.
eiriamach | Jul 19, 2012, 04:03 PM EDT
deirdre emm's scorn for people who do not share her bigotry is feeble and petty. It must be lonely living with such bitterness. Indeed, I suspect that lurking behind deirdre emm's fear-mongering and scapegoating is nothing more than a desperate search for like-minded--that is, similarly feeble-minded--people to agree with her. Any takers?
roryobrien | Jul 19, 2012, 11:28 AM EDT
@bob mc bride - can't agree with you more. And Irish Central should not refer to Willie O'Dea as "Minister". He's not, he's a disgraced Fianna failed politician desperate for a bit of oxygen.
DaTruth | Jul 19, 2012, 11:11 AM EDT
He's not the only one they all are.
YoungPike | Jul 19, 2012, 10:52 AM EDT
I wish more Irish people were agnostic. I used to run away from Sunday School so often that my mother gave up trying to indoctrinate me. Thankfully, my dad was not a zealot! Let your children make their own minds up!
hollabackgurl | Jul 19, 2012, 09:59 AM EDT
Mairint, we won't be emulating Israel in Ireland, thank you very much. You know what you can do with your thinly veiled threats to the minister and your all too obvious contempt to anyone who takes a different view, don't you?
mairint | Jul 19, 2012, 05:03 AM EDT
Alan Shatter has grown too big for his army boots. He is not a suitable person to be Minister for Defence. The Jewish people have always been treated honorably in Ireland and Shatter should be careful not to show such anti Catholic bias. Would he object if a prominent member of the Israeli government were given military honors in Ireland? After all Israel and Judaism are bound together, one identifies the other. Before you anti Catholic so-called Irish start spewing your foul language and viperous hate mongering against the Church again - you need to be reminded of how pathetically ignorant you sound.
GregShox | Jul 19, 2012, 04:01 AM EDT
Seanmor --No. The Irish State has grown up and no longer licks the boots of the bishops.
bob mcbride | Jul 18, 2012, 11:35 PM EDT
Nonsense people. Quit putting the catholic church on a pedastool. They hid pedophiles and child molesters for years. The church Ireland even sent them to other places to hide them! Who cares if he is Jewish,good for him! Israel makes some of the best weapons in the world, maybe he has the inside track with the manufacturers. Please lets try to make the world a better place! Benedict can afford an honor guard!
hollabackgurl | Jul 18, 2012, 07:50 PM EDT
I support minister Shatter's decision to separate church and state matters.
Seanmor | Jul 18, 2012, 05:37 PM EDT
Is Defence Minister Shatter really to blame for preventing the army from participating in the Eucharistic Congress, or has the Irish state surrendered so much of its sovereignty to the E.U. that its army can no longer take part in relegious events?
jim fitzpatrick | Jul 18, 2012, 04:57 PM EDT
Sad to see some nasty anti-semitic nonsense directed at an Irish minister because he is Jewish; we, the real Irish, have a long tradition of tolerance towards our centuries-old Jewish minority as we have today towards our relatively new Muslim minority. The Jews of Ireland go back to 1079 AD but the first real permanent Jewish settlement in Ireland was in the late 15th century when Jews expelled by religious extremists in Portugal settled in the south, near Cork, where they thrived and became leaders of the Gaelic Catholic community Please remember that ireland is probably the only country anywhere NEVER to persecute Jews or people of the Jewish faith. In Limerick at the turn of this century there was a nasty incidents after the local populace were roused by an anti-semitic preacher but the Catholic leaders of the day -like the great Fenian Michael Davitt condemned this violence and it quickly ended though many Jews fled to Cork where they were welcomed and settled easily. Last word goes to Daniel O'Connell the Liberator: O’Connell said: "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". We have reason to be proud of our Jewish fellow Irishmen and women and proud of our history of welcome, tolerance and assimilation. Excuse the history lesson :) Jim FitzPatrick, Dublin, Ireland.
readabook | Jul 18, 2012, 04:50 PM EDT
MichaelMcGrath,Looks like the New York Jew Boys have turned out.... You figured it out,McGrath,we not only control Hollywood,the Media and the Banks but we run Ireland,too.They just keep "bitter old anti semitic rummies"like you around so that the change in attitudes of the new generations of Irish and American citizenry wouldn't be too obvious and blow our "manipulative cover" ,but you're to clever to fall for any of that.
GregShox | Jul 18, 2012, 03:52 PM EDT
Michael McGrath, would you help me here by explaining Shatter's constitutional amendment to lock up thousands of children. Here in Ireland, we thought it was a refernedum on the rights of children, but now you're telling us it's the opposite. Say it ain't so! Have you got the wording of the proposed amendment You might share it with us. Also, call me stupid if you like, but I thought Alan Shatter's accent was old-fashioned wealthy-Dublin posh. And of course, as we all know, the most important thing about anyone is their accent. Right?
ciaradexy | Jul 18, 2012, 02:42 PM EDT
Irish people want separation of church and state. If they didnt, then more than 21% of the population would be attending mass. No one here cares what religion Shatter is. Its American readers of this site who seem to care.
ciaradexy | Jul 18, 2012, 01:32 PM EDT
Defense Minister Shatter was correct in his decision. An Irish Army spokesperson also said that such participation by the army in a religious ceremony was inappropriate. I say that in remembrance of a time long ago when, as a young corporal of 16 (yes, I lied about my age - as did most of us in the Irish Army Reserves), I happily participated in a such a ceremony. It was Mass on St. Patrick's Day in Swinford. Our heavy bull's wool uniforms were cleaned and pressed, our boots, leggings and brass buttons and insignia polished to a high shine, our .303 Lee Enfield English rifles spotless. We marched two by two up the center isle, then filed off on each side of the Communion Railing - and, facing the alter, presented arms at that special moment, the greatest of all Catholic miracles, the Transubstantiation - then smartly shouldered arms and marched back down the isle, to stand at ease in back of the church. I was proud to have been chosen for the Guard of Honor but I was 16 then did not question the church's involvement in almost every aspect of our lives.
leahkinsella | Jul 18, 2012, 01:10 PM EDT
Alan Shatter is a good kind and generous man. I worked in his legal firm for years and he was the first lawyer to instigate the Judicial Separation Act when divorce was not allowed in the Republic. He fought for the rights of others. I will not hear a bad word against him. This anti-Semetic nonsence says more about the people making the comments then it does about him.
hollabackgurl | Jul 18, 2012, 01:09 PM EDT
Ah yes, Wille O'Dea, that paragon of an upstanding Christian. He can't tell the difference between a tip off and perjury so I doubt if he can tell the difference between church and state.
eiriamach | Jul 18, 2012, 12:33 PM EDT
There is nothing anti-Catholic in not providing a military retinue for a religious procession. Did the Eucharistic Congress receive threats of assassination or threats of a terrorist attack? No, then why would a military retinue be appropriate? Its symbolism would be all too clear: the State serves and defends the Church-- wrong! Dangerously wrong in an era when high church officials have committed heinous crimes against Irish youth yet not faced justice. Refusing to provide a military guard does not depict the citizenry as secular; it does, however, reject a relationship that would serve only the church while disadvantaging ministers of state in the event of conflict between religious officials and state policy. If a military contingent has always been provided in the past for religious processions, it's high time to halt it now. "We've always done it this way" is never a reason for continuing any tradition! When a religious official like a pope or Archbishop of Canterbury meets with the Taoiseach, a military guard would be appropriate because the visit would be a state occasion, not a religious / liturgical event. The difference is clear.
culchiewoman | Jul 18, 2012, 11:04 AM EDT
Oh sweet sufferin'...what a load of bollix. Has it occurred to anyone that with a battered economy, maybe the Irish State couldn't afford to assign a phalanx of guards for a religious procession? @Bogsidebunny, couldn't have put it better.
readabook | Jul 18, 2012, 11:01 AM EDT
Actually Ray1Gordon, Mr Shatter is an "Israeli Spy" with a "Zionist" agenda. Ignorant, "Rummy",do you still wait up for Santa Clause. Shuvonn "Surely we are evolved enough" to allow for outmoded traditions to fade into the Sunset in favor of Separation of Church and State. This allows for true Religious Freedom as opposed to a Yearly Rendition of "Onward Christian Soldiers" hermitTalker-You are truly a wealth of (disparate and questionable ) information.Ex "The Vatican is less wealthy than the top US schools" Yikes! I wouldn't worry too much about your "Shamrocks" "becoming defunct?!?! but we'll have to do something to requiring atheists, Unitarians, Moslems and Jews to wearing Green on St Patricks Day so as not to be accused of "Prejudice and Dual Loyalties" We wouldn't want to offend you as Most of us enjoy wearing green on this fun holiday
bogsidebunny | Jul 18, 2012, 10:42 AM EDT
Come on this is bull s**t. That's it folks play the "racist" card. The Jews including Minister shatter are the most oppressed, targeted and attacked religious group in Ireland. The honoured, praised and adored ones are the Palestinians and Muslims. Ireland wants to become a secular State so this is a good call. Keep government out of ALL religious functions. What's good for the goose is good for the gander....Shalom!
Bhrighde | Jul 18, 2012, 10:40 AM EDT
It's to bad the Irish can't stand up to the church. Good for Mr. Shatter.
joan1954 | Jul 18, 2012, 10:19 AM EDT
Interesting comments, Portia777 the Vatican has no army unless you consider the swiss guards Army which it is technically but they are a bodyguard. Jesuits are not an army though centuries ago perhaps they thought they were. The eucharistic congress that ended recently was not the congress in control of John Charles McQuade et al and Eamon DeValera and from a time when subserviance was the rule. "Catholic" Ireland is dead and gone it's with O'Leary in the grave.
hermitTalker | Jul 18, 2012, 10:16 AM EDT
WHOOPEE portia and cyn, you do your usual anti-Christian and anti-catholic bit and they portia you are back to defend Mr Shatter's right to be a minister despite his Jewishness with which I agree totally. Your bigotry and ignorant comments are what need correction. The Vatican is less wealthy than the top US schools.The Minister's action is unfortunately part of an over-reactive swing toward secularising the nation. The other government leaders' attacking the Pope for what was not done in IRELAND about abuse, while they still have not passed a law and do not have the personnel to implement it, long after the pope and bishops of the world have estabiished safeguards and traiing for protection of minors; asking the Cardinal to resign for what he had no authority to do 37 years ago, and suggestiing that confessions be revealved in contradiction of the Natural Law are part of the total un-thinking package of illogical liberalism. The Catholic Church will last a long time after Ireland surrenders what is left of its sovereignty to the Troika, and the Oireachtas will rubber-stamp every law decreed from "over there." That is not all that far away now, and the horses are galloping to allow abortion on demand,starting out with extremely emotional cases as was done elsewhere. And re-define marriage. The Shamrock might be next to face banishment because it is used as a symbol of Trinitarian belief which may upset atheists, Unitarians, Moslems and Jews.
shuvonn | Jul 18, 2012, 10:15 AM EDT
Portia: Surely we are evolved enough to allow a tradition that has always taken place to continue in a state that is predominately catholic?
Portia777 | Jul 18, 2012, 09:54 AM EDT
Ray1Gordon | Jul 18, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT Shatter is an Israeli pretending to be Irish. He is a disgrace who should never be involved in the Irish government. Let him move to Israel where he would be right at home." Surely we are evolved enough by now to stop this programmed nonsense of one religion v another, when they all originate from the same place- mind control programming.
Portia777 | Jul 18, 2012, 09:53 AM EDT
Why did the Vatican not use its own military? Jesuits. No, it just wanted to show state was still under the yoke of Rome since 1172.
Cyn | Jul 18, 2012, 09:46 AM EDT
And just who will receive the bill for said provided guard? Ireland has money to throw around guarding the richest cult in the world?
Ray1Gordon | Jul 18, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT
Shatter is an Israeli pretending to be Irish. He is a disgrace who should never be involved in the Irish government. Let him move to Israel where he would be right at home.