112 Comments

• ciaradexy | Jan 25, 2012, 10:34 AM EST

  Jaysis, Is georgie the immigrant spawn still waffling on about this issue?

• paddyRanger | Jan 11, 2012, 10:40 AM EST

  George Dillon.....your a wee bit confused...the racist vermin is YOU......in fact not a wee bit confused totally confused, imbecile racist vermin

• Sparklet | Jan 09, 2012, 01:36 PM EST

  One more for the road because I really don't have the self-control to not point out that once again George has shown his stupidity. I never said you did address me, you nitwit. I asked you a question which you responded to in your normal puerile, ignorant fashion. Suggesting that you don't speak to me again was just pre-empting the possibility that you might respond to something else in the future. And for the record, you didn't reply patiently. You were arrogant and obnoxious. What we've come to expect really. Have a nice life. (And I never promised, either).

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 09, 2012, 03:20 AM EST

  sparkless: I didn't address you, you nitwit. You directed a rather dumb question to me, and I replied to it patiently. I'll be watching to see if you have enough self-control to keep your promise, by the way.

• Sparklet | Jan 08, 2012, 11:03 AM EST

  George, you're really quite ignorant, despite your attempts to convince us otherwise. Please don't talk to me again, as I really have better things to do than waste my time attempting to debate with someone who has no time for opinions other than his own.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 08, 2012, 10:52 AM EST

  Sparklet: People who advocate the emigration of Irish people from their ancient homeland, and their replacement by foreign migrants from all over the world, are ipso facto racists, despite all the verbiage they may wrap their bigotry in. They would be racists if they advocated that the Chamorros leave Guam to make way for foreigners, or if they thought it a good idea that the Polynesians abandon Tahiti to open it up to settlement by Europeans and Americans, and they're racist if they want to replace Irish people in their own homeland by Chinese, Indians, Angolans, Poles, Latvians, Nigerians, Pakistanis or any of the scores of foreign nationalities that are now settling Ireland. Please don't ask me this again, as I really have better things to do than explain the obvious to you.

• Sparklet | Jan 07, 2012, 03:53 PM EST

  George, how can Ciara be racist if she is "spreading Irishness around to every Nigerian, Pole or Indian that she takes a fancy to"?

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 07, 2012, 03:47 PM EST

  ciaradexy--So people who argue for a prudent and moderate immigration policy in Ireland are racists? By your insane "reasoning" then 70% of the Irish people are racists, because when polled 70% of Irish people express opposition to their government's Open Door polices. And by your madwoman's line of "thought", if we may misuse that word, the real anti-racists in Ireland are Fianna Fail and the Irish boss class, since it was they who instigated the policy of Mass Immigration! What a mindless moron you are, ciaradexty. In fact such an amadan (that means "fool" in Irish--I know you learned no Irish in a dozen years "study" of the language) that you try to deny Irishness to people who hold Irish nationality, while spreading it around to every Nigerian, Pole or Indian that you take a fancy to when they deplane at Dublin Airport! I will never be silenced by racist fools like you, I've seen how you Mass Immigrationists try to stifle debate on the issue in Ireland. I'll confront racist imbeciles like you head on. Listen, I hear the Irish are importing Pakistani psychiatrists to help keep the Irish sane. Why don't you make an appointment with Dr Ali Khan?

• ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 03:10 PM EST

  George, Im starting to think youre a tad mentally unstable. Show me the post where I defended any sort of animal torture, seriously. Several times on here you complained about Ireland letting immigrants in. Youve complained about Polish and other nationalities working in hospitality here. YOU ARE THE RACIST!! You really need to have a good long talk with yourself. Maybe record yourself chatting to yourself on skype and view it back just to confirm to yourself what most people on here already know about you.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 07, 2012, 02:51 PM EST

  Sure hope TomSwinford has some respect for the cultures he encounters in the Caribbean and doesn't do his usual ignorant Ugly American act down there.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 07, 2012, 02:49 PM EST

  paddyranger: I think I told you before--I don't engage in dialog with members of the British Forces or former members. I especially despise racist vermin such as you. How come you're not in your usual spot on the British National Front site? Racist garbage.

• sirpeter | Jan 07, 2012, 01:09 PM EST

  @ciaradexy.I was speaking in general.Most people leave for economic reasons.

• paddyRanger | Jan 07, 2012, 11:47 AM EST

  “He salivates over those who deserted the Irish Army in its hour of need”………..haha in its hour of need So pray tell us georgy racist boy Dillon, what did the Irish Army do during the years 39-45 besides sitting on its hole doing Sweet F all?? …….The BRAVE Irishmen who helped defeat fascist NAZI Germany did more for Ireland’s existence as a separate Nation than sitting back at home doing NOTHING

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 07, 2012, 10:53 AM EST

  Ciaradexy; Your claim that "People like GeorgeDillon is upset that we have immigrants here who will pollute the gene pool" is final proof that you're an utter imbecile and a racist creep. On another thread you even defended the torture and killing of that donkey in Donegal. You're disgusting, please don't address me or refer to me, and I'll likewise ignore you. I feel soiled and tainted when I see my name mentioned in any of your posts.

• ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 09:07 AM EST

  Sirpeter, not every Irish person who lives away from home was forced to leave. My bro went travelling 4 years ago and has decided that NZ is where is want to be. I have lots of friends living all over the world who want to be where they are. They have no intention of ever moving home. My view on IAs is that they are NOT Irish. Most have never even been to Ireland so you cant love a place youve never been to. Most have a background thats is faintly Irish but other than that they are Americans. I have Swedish and Argentinian mates, even my step mam is Argentinian and they are more irish than my cousins in CA who have 2 Irish parents. Im aware from visiting the US that there are plenty of Americans who think the Quiet Man is an up to date guide to ireland. People like GeorgeDillon is upset that we have immigrants here who will pollute the gene pool and some are amazed that we have electricity! Plenty of them, think we all hate the English and I think thats very evident from a few on here! Thats not Irish to me. We are an open dynamic country and we do not need to be patronised by IA. I have a couple of American mates here. When 1 moved here first she introduced herself as Irish. When asked when did she move to the US, she looked a bit confused. Once we told her that here, shes American and not irish, she understood pretty well and now she has a bit more cop on. I like to think we taught her well! Enjoy the holiday Tom.

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 10:16 PM EST

  Tom.You probably won't get this post.But have a great time.The Caribbean is lovely.

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 10:10 PM EST

  Dano..Hang on.Ciaradexy made a comment.Either you agree with her comment or you disagree.She didn't ask you about what a wonderful time the Irish had building hundreds of fu*kin airstrips.You think Irish people have a wonderful time been away from home.From their loved ones?From their country.Can you not see on this site after 6 generations the affection that Irish Americans have for Ireland?Do you not see that they are still part of Ireland?Do you not see with all our disagreements with some American policies Irish Americans will always be a part of Ireland?I know Irish people Dano.They smile and make the best of it.Half the time they don't want to think about the price they payed.Give them that much at least.Tell that to those Irishmen who built those airstrips,many who ended up old men in one roomed bedsits,alone and dieing in the 70s and been spat on for been Irish.

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 10:09 PM EST

  sirpeter, I agree, we are different and have conflicting opinions on Ireland's long and troubled history but we are both Irish and we both have a fair knowledge of our favorite subject. No doubt we will cross swords again but perhaps in future we'll keep the rhetoric a few decibels lower. I'll be signing off for a while. My wife and I are heading to Tampa tomorrow to hop a cruise ship for the Caribbean. Hell! after this long and strong debate I need a break. Slan.

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 09:25 PM EST

  OK Tom.I see we are making progress on this issue too.We are reaching a higher level of discussion.This is all ask from any person on IC.I have no wish to abuse anybody on this site.But I will reply to the level that the comment dictates.I think our Irish American friends and the people who live in the beautiful emerald isle have seen a fair discussion.A discussion worthy of who we are.Different but not stupid.To me it's not about humiliating a person or losing an argument or been right.It's about responding to an article in a balanced intelligent way.I'm here to give my opinion and to challenged those who give only one side of the coin.I also have no wish to go to a level that most people here will miss the point.Then I'm only posting to my own ego.Stauffenberg had a higher patriotism.He loved his country as much as any German and he gladly payed the price though he failed.Do you think Ireland could ever have a man like Stauffenberg to save us from bloodsucking Germany.I know he was a Catholic.But an Irish Protestant will do too.lol.I was going to say a West Brit but they are only in Ireland for the money.Slan! Corporal Swinford.

• ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 09:06 PM EST

  Sure we all go to London for mad weekends!

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 06, 2012, 07:14 PM EST

  ciaradexy - You're right on the Belfast bombings, but initially all alien military were interned...look at the recent IC story of the US pilot who crashed his Spitfire, escaped north, and was sent back by the Brits, in deference to Irish neutrality. It should also be remembered that the Irish Army was supplied mainly with British munitions...and of course many Irish ships availed themselves of the protection of British Royal Navy convoy protection...as you have said before, on a practical level they got on very well...It was mainly Irish labour that built the hundreds of airstrips in eastern England in preparation for D-Day. I met a number of these men in later life, and most said it was the best time of their lives..they had plenty money (for the time), worked hard, and had mad weekends in London whenever they could...

• ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 06:40 PM EST

  When the Germans bombed Belfast, Dev sent firemen to fight the blaze. Germans bailing out over the South were interned while the allies were allowed return to the North.When the IRA declared war on Britain Dev imprisoned them and even executed some of its members.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 06, 2012, 06:34 PM EST

  Sirpete – You ask for evidence that this blacklist ONLY applied to men who fought the Nazis, and not all deserters – I refer you to a Dáil debate on 18 October 1945, where Defence Minister Traynor states - ‘All told, the total number of desertions is round the 7,000 mark... There are 4,000 men affected by the Order’. ALL 4000 HAD VOLUNTEERED FOR THE BRITISH ARMY…There was no attempt to put any of the other 3000 ‘stay at home’ deserters on the ‘Starvation order’…so what do you say now?

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 06, 2012, 06:31 PM EST

  Sirpete – Sorry, I’m going to have to come back on this…so you’re saying Dev was prepared to overlook all the breaches of Irish neutrality, and the Irish deaths, caused by Nazi attacks on its small Merchant Fleet, because that was ‘proper protocol’… yet he could not bring himself to show forgiveness to his fellow Irishmen, real men, who were part of putting a stop to those very attacks on Irish shipping, and the death of more innocent Irish sailors…can you not see a flaw in his logic, in his finest hour?

• ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 06:28 PM EST

  Watching a great programme called The Story of Ireland right now. Im sure it can be downloaded online somewhere for those of you who are interested.

• ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 06:08 PM EST

  sirpeter, we have not bridged the devide completely but we have found some common ground and that is progress. I'm afraid I can't equate Hitler's higher calling - consumate evil - with Stauffenberg's noble act for love of country and humanity. On the other hand I accept your point re. the principle of punishment for desertion. In this case, however, while a token punishment may have been appropriate, it should have been quickly set aside and a full pardon granted within a reasonable time-frame. These Irishmen did fight to defeat the greatest tyranny in history and Ireland was a beneficiary of that victory. They deserved better. Slan.

• ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 05:41 PM EST

  I love seeing GeorgeDillon calling people racist when he has massive issues with immigrants coming to Ireland!

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 04:36 PM EST

  Ah!! Dano.I can't be going there again.I honestly do think Dev did the right thing keeping Ireland out of the war.I could explain why he gave his deepest condolences.It had nothing to do with Hitler.He had a personal relationship with Hempel.He liked the guy.ALSO!!It is proper protocol given the state's neutrality.ALSO!!He liked pis*ing Churchill off and for good reason.Quoet"Churchill makes it clear that, in certain circumstances, he would have violated our neutrality and that he would justify his actions by Britain’s necessity. It seems strange to me that Mr. Churchill does not see that this, if accepted, would mean that Britain's necessity would become a moral code and that when this necessity became sufficiently great, other people’s rights were not to count... that is precisely why we had this disastrous succession of wars"Unquote.That said I think Dev shouldn't have done it.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 06, 2012, 04:00 PM EST

  Oh look--another racist rant from a usual source--the poster TomSwinford! What a hypocrite he is. He salivates over those who deserted the Irish Army in its hour of need and would--if patriots had not remained faithful--have left Ireland open to invasion from any source, and indeed would have murdered their fellow-Irishmen if ordered to do so by their British officer class. But he himself was quite happy to go to Vietnam and kill what he and his chums called "gooks"! No man of conscience there, no conscientious deserter he, just a useless snivelling hypocrite and racist.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 06, 2012, 02:47 PM EST

  Sirpete – You explain how Mexico and Brazil declared war on Nazi Germany following attacks on their shipping. So what was the reaction to all the IRISH ships sunk by the Germans? Each one an unarmed merchant ships, with clear neutral markings. Ships like the LEUKOS - sunk by U38 off Tory Island - 11 MEN KILLED ~ CITY OF LIMERICK - sunk by the Luftwaffe - Bay of Biscay, survivors recued by brave Belgian trawler - 2 MEN KILLED ~ LUIMNEACH - Bay of Biscay bound for Drogheda– sunk by U46 ~ ISOLDA – Lightship operated by the Commissioners of Irish Lights, sunk by Luftwaffe off Rosslare, 6 MEN killed ~ CLONLARA - Sunk by one of 7 U-Boats en route to Lisbon – eleven killed ~ IRISH OAK - sunk by U607 off U.S. COAST ~ IRISH PINE - sunk by U608 off U.S. COAST – 33 IRISH CREW KILLED ~ KYLECLARE - sunk by U456 in Atlantic bound for Dublin – All 18 IRISH CREW KILLED – Makes you wonder why Dev couldn’t take a lead from even the Mexicans, instead of running round to offer ‘his deepest condolences’ on the death of the Commander in Chief of these guys, eh? Still think it was his finest hour?

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 02:36 PM EST

  Tom.I understand where you are coming from as well.Which is why I didn't state in any comment here that PERSONALLY I thought they should be shot.They were just blacklisted from government jobs which I thought was fair enough.It's the price they had to pay for their higher calling.The choice they made was related to personal principles of right and wrong.Acting on personal principle comes with a price at times.I'm not lecturing but if everyone acted on their OWN higher calling.Remember Hitler had a higher calling too according to himself. Everyone would be personally justified to act on his/her own conscience."Civilised"society says no.We have rules.But a fairly just society understands human autonomy and therefore might just meter out a token punishment.This token punishment has to be done.Most of those men are dead now anyway.So a pardon is healing for the sons and daughters of these men.That has got to be a good thing.Course that's only my opinion.I'm all for a higher patriotism and higher callings.My personal ancestors have been paying the price for those for 300 years.You made a good argument to justify the IRA though.When you think about it.lol

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 12:45 PM EST

  Sir Peter, I understand your point very well - and have from the beginning. Normally, I would agree with you but not in this particular case because this was a unique circumstance. Survival as a nation and quite possibly as a race were in the balance. To hold men true to an oath, an oath to do, effectively, nothing to ensure their own survival or the survival of their country in the face of probable conquest - certain conquest if England had been defeated - is akin to national suicide. Today, in Germany, Claus von Stauffenberg is revered as one of Germany's greatest heroes and martyrs. Together with a fairly small group of like-minded patriots (the real kind, not the blowhard armchair variety)he broke his sacred oath of allegience to Der Fuhrer and attempted to kill him. Why? Because these men were answering a higher calling, a higher patriotism, a love for humanity and for their country - so they violated this oath made on their sacred honor. I submit that Irishmen, recognising a greater evil, chose to fight that evil directly - I do not believe for a single moment that any of them believed they were betraying their country or being disloyal to it. Indeed, these men did far more to ensure Ireland's survival than those who served quietly and peacefully on the home-front. Personally, for what it's worth, I served in the Irish Defense Forces for more than three years, reaching the modest rank of corporal at the age of 16. I requested a discharge in order to emigrate to the U.S. where in less than two years I was drafted into the U.S. Army. Five months later I was in Vietnam, straight-leg infantry. I saw war up close and very personal - so perhaps you will agree that I don't need lectures on the subject.

• ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 12:30 PM EST

  Lads, seriously, shut up and give it a rest.

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 10:50 AM EST

  Not you again Tommy!!.The state of the Irish army is irrelevant.I'm going to try a different angle this time.Even though it will amount to the same thing.Keep repeating it.It will sink in I tell myself.lol The bombing of cities was against the Geneva Convention prior to WW2.It was based on MORAL grounds to protect civilians in times of war.Every soldier knew this.The soldiers knew it was morally wrong.YET!!Both sides bombed civilians.Why did soldiers do it? BECAUSE THEY SWORE AN OATH!!! TO OBEY THEIR COUNTRIES ORDERS.A SOLDIER WHO THINKS FOR HIMSELF WHEN ATTACKING AN ENEMY MAKES A BAD SOLDIER.A soldier who deserts his post on ANY grounds is leaving himself open to punishment.THE LAW IN ANY COUNTRY OR ARMY IS NOT ABOUT JUSTICE.IT'S ABOUT LAW AND RULES.They were punished/blacklisted for breaking the rules of the army way.What government stood up and said these men/deserters did the right thing???NONE!!NONE!!NONE!!Because armies in general can't condone desertion on any grounds.I'm done on this article. lolololol

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 09:51 AM EST

  @Scotchtommy.You can have YOUR last word if you want.The problem on this site is that the CONTENT of a lot of peoples arguments are EMOTIONAL rather than reasoning.Governments and the media know this very well and use it.You can get all emotional because some Dutch or Belgians or Danes shake a guys hand because he risked his life for them.And well they should.I'll say it again and again and again.They swore an oath to defend Ireland.To hold their post IN Ireland.THEY are soldiers.They DO as they are told by the country they swore to defend.If every German soldier ran off from France to Stalingrad in 1941 to save the 6th Army because that's where they thought they were most needed.Even if they were right.The British would have been across into France by March 1942.In ANY army it DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.God almighty the IQ here is on the ground like a whores knickers.

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 09:12 AM EST

  Sir Peter, if you must insult me try to do it with style - see my earlier post to you in which I used satire. As to this badly beaten dead horse, here's the essence of it: The tiny Irish Army, poorly armed, poorly equipped, and poorly trained - no navy and no air force - was not defending Ireland's vaunted neutrality against all-comers. This army, still not half the size of a single American division, would have happily surrendered in a New York minute to avoid instant annihilation at the hands of crack, jack-booted Wehrmacht and Waffen SS infantry and armoured divisions. To suggest otherwise is laughable in the extreme. No lad, Ireland's survival in WW ll did not depend on the home army, it depended on England's ability to survive. The battle for survival was across the pond and some Irishmen had the wisdom and the guts to recognize this and act. I am reminded of Lincoln's response to his ferocious critics in the newspapers and the Congress when he suspended Habeas Corpus in 1861 - when Washington was swarming with Southern spies and sympathizers, the enemy was across the river and Lincoln could not even trust his own cabinet. I do not recall his exact words but this is basically what he said: We are in a death struggle to determine whether our country will live or die. If we fail what good is our Bill of Rights then. But if we save our country, the Bill of Rights and our Constitution will be quickly restored. Ireland's unfought battle for survival was fought the other side of the Irish Sea.

• sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 09:03 AM EST

  Dano.Hang on a sec.Do you have a link to some evidence where these men were blacklisted NOT because of desertion but because they fought against the Nazis? So you are saying the Irish government and Dev were pro-Nazi? I have to stop myself laughing.If they had a trial for these men it would have made things serious and public opinion could have demanded they be put in jail.The Irish government saved their a*s. They were just blacklisted from taking government jobs.Joining the British army at any time is frowned upon by a huge amount of Irish people.If those men were put on trial and brought to the forefront of the minds of Irish people.A lot of them would have got a beating or worse in their local pub at some stage.The Dutch, Belgians, Poles,Yugoslavs had every reason to fight the Nazis,they were in their country.There were several German submarine attacks against Brazilian ships between February and August that year in the Atlantic Ocean reaching 1,079 casualties.Brazil had to be coaxed to enter the war on the side of the Allies.Mexican shipping was attacked by the Nazis so they declared war.BTW Dano I never said the US was the first to declare war.*rolls eyes

• IrelandNorth | Jan 06, 2012, 07:59 AM EST

  Desertion from the Oglaigh na h'Eireann (Irish Volunteers) officially known as the Permanent Defence Forces (PDF) during hostilities was treasonable, even if to assist Mother Theresa in Calcutta. A Defence Force is not an army, which has offensive capabilities. Please note well.

• gobdawpaddy | Jan 06, 2012, 05:00 AM EST

  Considering the repetetive '5 year old' posts by certain Ireland based 'contributors', it is no wonder the IMF decided to intervene in Ireland. The IMF intervenes in countries where the people are considered too dumb to manage their own affairs.

• Scotchtommy | Jan 06, 2012, 02:49 AM EST

  sirpeter,hopeless as it is I'll try to have the last word.I won't waste any more breath defending those gallant Irishmen who fought Nazism.Go to the war cemeteries and see the graves of those Irish who gave their lives in the fight against Hitler.That says say it all.About 25 years ago an old Irishman came into my local bar in a little Dutch town.We got talking,he was holyidaying in Holland and it turned out that he'd fought his way across Europe, been wounded twice and had taken part in the liberation of the Netherlands.When the Dutch locals heard this EVERY person in the bar,,young and old, man and woman, came up to shake his hand and thank him.Men brought their children over to shake his hand.I heard a man explain to his little boy that this mynheer had come from Ireland to ""free us"".I don't know if he'd left the irish Army to join the British but to you he's no doubt a dirty deserter who should have spent WW11 guarding Ballyboghtrottoir railway station.That's not what the Dutch,the Belgians,the Danes say.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 06, 2012, 12:58 AM EST

  Sirpete - Germany declared war on the U.S., not the other way round...

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 06, 2012, 12:05 AM EST

  Sirpete – You haven’t grasped the nub of the whole argument…this punishment WAS NOT FOR DESERTION…It was for then choosing to fight against the Nazis…they obviously could not do this as Irish Army soldiers, but did so as gallant Irishmen…they were then punished WITHOUT TRIAL…in breach of their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS…what motivated others, eg The Dutch, Belgians, Poles, Yugoslavs, Brazilians, Mexicans and other ‘non ducking nations’ to fight the Nazis is another matter.

• sirpeter | Jan 05, 2012, 11:14 PM EST

  Dano.You don't seem to understand that right or wrong it wasn't their call.They were soldiers.We declared our neutrality.I still value our neutrality.History dictates that small nations in war make very little difference and can suffer massively.Did America or Britain go to war to free Poland from enslavement from the Soviet Union? NO!!!Half of Europe ends up under commie rule.WHY? Because it wasn't in the interest of America.They even had the bomb.How many lessons in history do you want Dano?Small countries need to stay out of war if they can help it.They went to war against Germany because Hitler was a threat to America and Britain.It wasn't to free Poland because they cuddled up to another despot Stalin who took half Europe.Always some despot trying to take over the world.We took our chances and luckily it worked out.Great move!!Devs finest hour.He allowed our wife's and kids to grow up with their fathers.All the American wars in the last 60 years.Telling their own people a pack of lies and killing millions of people in the process.The yanks have a war on everything.Even a war on poverty.Now they have their beady eye on Iran.How many more people have to die to be free?Best thing Ireland can do is just duck.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 05, 2012, 10:46 PM EST

  Unconstitutional action? Bunreacht na hÉireann - Article 38 – Right of members of the Defence Forces to be tried by Court Martial – de Valera enacted this by executive order, no trial, no opportunity for accused to make a defence…

• sirpeter | Jan 05, 2012, 10:11 PM EST

  Yeah!!Tommy Swine.5,000 Irishmen all with Irish DNA deserting Ireland.Yeah you honor them.By your reasoning if the whole Irish army deserted.You would honour them.As long as it's for a good cause.That makes it ok for a soldier to desert his post.That's what you are saying.Just ignore the will of the democratically elected government of Ireland.That doesn't matter.In times of war all citizens/soldiers should obey the chain of command in the interest of the whole nation.Only an idiot would think otherwise.Bet you wouldn't honour the 350000 Irishmen who served in the British army in WW1 if they deserted to fight for Irish freedom in 1916.Irish freedom wouldn't have been a good enough cause for you.If Ireland ever has to go to war I guess we'll let you mind the kids.Under supervision of course.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 05, 2012, 10:04 PM EST

  Sirpete – The weakness in your argument is that de Valera also had the benefit of hindsight when he made this order…he KNEW no invasion ever came. He KNEW these men were NEVER needed for combat…don’t forget that this was NOT a punishment for deserters in general…that was very mild...it was ONLY for men who decided to put themselves in real harms way, fighting one of the most ruthless military machines the world had seen, rather that pointlessly guard some little boreen in North Donegal or wherever…a vindictive, possibly unconstitutional use of executive power…perhaps to assuage his guilt in failing to join the fight for democracy? Who can say…? The present government seem keen to right this wrong…not before time…

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 05, 2012, 09:40 PM EST

  Dillon, I will not waste my time addressing your usual drivel point by point because it is ... well pointless. Hitler's attitude toward the Irish is well documented - as are his attitudes toward a good number of other etnnicities and nationalities - he was never shy about expressing himself in this regard. Do your research. I used to think that your endless insult, ugly name-calling and generally abusive language was just your schtick. It isn't. Your instant descent into degenerate speech is, I believe, pathological, an illness. At the very least it betrays a very angry dude, one who is unable to engage in civil discourse, one who is possibly a danger to his community - if he lives in one. I have taken you to task on many occasions - as have others - both on the intellectual merits of your posts and factual accuracy. While on occasion you are on point, more often than not you are doing revolutions around Pluto, bordering on lunacy. More than once I have done you a kindness by ignoring a particularly ignorant and/or offensive post. You often accuse other commentators of being racist, no doubt a deflection ploy, when you are, in fact, the racist-in-chief on IrishCentral. You clearly have a compelling need to rage ad nauseam so why don't you take your gutter prose to the many white supremacist and other hate-based websites. Perhaps you already have.

• sirpeter | Jan 05, 2012, 09:14 PM EST

  Dano.The weakness in your argument is you speak from hindsight.Nothing becomes fact until it happens.On August 2,1939,just before the beginning of World War II,Albert Einstein wrote to then President Franklin D.Roosevelt. Einstein and several other scientists told Roosevelt of efforts in Nazi Germany to purify uranium-235,which could be used to build an atomic bomb.Still think the Brit government felt the war was won by December 1941?Japan sweeping all before them.The Brits crying after they gave up Singapore without a fight to a lesser force of Japs on bicycles in 1942.The only thing Britain knew by December 1941 was there might not be a London at some stage.Well not one that didn't glow in the dark maybe.I'd say at that point in history that was what Churchill was thinking.Even with the benefit of hindsight you're not convincing.

• ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 08:14 PM EST

  The anti-Irish remarks seem to come from Americans who really dont have a clue. Theyre reading history books and hearing all this anti British sentiment which has been passed down by people who have probably never been to Ireland anyway! We have grown, developed and matured and we should not have to apologise for that and i for one dont. Someone mentioned the manchster irish festival, most Brits of irish backgrounds are usually 1st generation British so theyre well in touch with what goes on here as we have loads in common! We travel there for football and gigs. They travel here to meet mates and also to go to gigs. We have more in common with the Brits than we do with any other nation. People can harp on all they want about the Diaspora but having an irish greatgranny still makes you American and not irish. My 3 cousins in the US have irish parents and are over here at least every 2 years and even they are American. If havent grown up here then you are different whether or not you realise it.

• ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 08:07 PM EST

  Sirpeter, i accept what you are saying but you need to try and empathise with those en. You need to try and imagine what it was like for them. They had families to support and they were the only ones who could do that so they did what they felt was needed of them at that time in order for them to see their kids grow up. Maybe they felt it was either emigrate or join up with the Brits? I dont know but what I do know is that until you are faced with it, you cannot make that judgemnet of those men. Either way, they were brave and defended Ireland and for that, they have my respect.

• ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 08:04 PM EST

  Cheers Tom. Happy New Year to you.

• ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 07:22 PM EST

  DanO, good post. Solid, factual information.

• ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 07:20 PM EST

  ciaradexy, I echo your sentiments. It is perhaps a little sad that you must justify your love of country in these pages. Like you, Ireland is in my dna. I enjoy your posts. They are ...elevating.

• sirpeter | Jan 05, 2012, 07:10 PM EST

  @ciaradexy.OK.I can understand that the amount of anti-British sentiment on this site disgusts you.But the anti-British sentiment is about British political policy.Nothing to do with the British public.I have respect for most of them.But there is a lot of anti-Irish sentiment as well.But a lot is at the Irish public.Big difference.Most of the articles are about Ireland and Irish history.I'm Irish too.I live here.I know my Irish history more that most and I use facts to back up my opinion.They deserted the Irish army during a very dangerous time for Ireland.They took an oath to defend the Republic from invasion.That meant from the British as well.Britain was just as much a threat to Ireland.If the British felt the Irish ports were necessary to safeguard their own country.They would not have respected Irish neutrality.Neutrality was the best course of action and that was the decision.If the British took the Irish ports for British use Hitler might have decided on an easy invasion of Ireland was worth while.If the British invaded those Irish deserters would have been forced to shoot their own countrymen or pay the consequences.I can see you were defending the British public in your past comments maybe a little bit at the expense of the Irish.I will defend the facts of my history against those who wish to undermine it.But I understand now where you were coming from.So I take back the abuse I gave you and apologize.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 05, 2012, 07:04 PM EST

  George Dillon perpetuates the myth of ‘men who deserted her in her hour of greatest peril’. What was this peril for most of the war? Once Germany invaded the Soviet Union, in June 1941, there was ZERO prospect of invasion from that side…in reality, if they couldn’t cross the 25 miles of the English Channel, they could never have invaded. Once Germany had declared war on USA in December 1941, Britain knew they would win in the end, with or without the help of de Valera…who contented himself with hanging the odd IRA man. He did protest the arrival of GI’s in ‘his’ NI, but was firmly put in his box by Roosevelt. In the build up to D-Day, he refused a US request to close enemy legations, to restrict knowledge of the Allied preparations. In the post-war years the US let it be seen that Ireland’s neutrality had made it a pariah state, while the Soviet Union vetoed Irish membership of the UN. This, and his treatment of the men who fought, was de Valera’s myopic legacy…

• ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 05:55 PM EST

  I dont post anything thats anti-Irish Sirpeter. Im very proud of being Irish. I wouldnt be from anywhere else but I can travel and visit other countries and take people as I meet them. I love everything about this country and I love the fact that Im comfortable enough in my own skin that I can go to other countries and visit mates from wherever in the world and I know Im not inferior. I am also glad that Ive ruined other peoples stereotypical idea of the Irish. I have felt nothing but respect from people from the UK. I have never been treated badly or put down but the amount of anti-British sentiment on this site disgusts me. I have family who fought for the Brits and another who was in The Squad and the fact that my family had any involvement in the history of this country fills me with immense pride. My dad who is from Monaghan calls me a 'Culchie Jackeen' because most weekends Im off travelling around this country due to my love for this place. I dont need to eat history books to feel Irish. I AM Irish. This land is mine and I am part of it. I dont have some rosey view of Ireland but what I have is a respect for her History but I can also appreciate the present and how far we have come as a nation. We will get through this recession, I have no doubt and unless people go insane, we will have a real government elected by us for us within the next 2 years or around the next election and then the government will put us first. I cannot wait for that day because I have 2 young nephews and the oldest who is nearly 9 also loves his history. he loves the National Museum, he loves Kilaminham, he loves City Hall and Dublin Castle and he thinks the Rock of Cashel is just AMAZING and I want him to have as much love for his home as I have.

• sirpeter | Jan 05, 2012, 05:38 PM EST

  @ciaradexy.No!!I didn't abuse you for not been an anti-British bigot.Been reading your comments for a while now.I abused you for been a little to anti-Irish in your past and present comments.As an Irish person I find them insulting.Posting informed constructive criticism I don't have a problem with.If you just post anti-Irish comments to every article then expect abuse.Expect a lot of it.

• ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 05:08 PM EST

  George: I do know that Hitler admired the English/British empire, and had every intention fo letting them keep their empire if he defeated them. I would have to agree with Tom on this, and say he would have considered the Irish an inferior race.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 05, 2012, 03:50 PM EST

  As often happens, TomSwinford is out of his depth again. He tells us that Hitler had contempt for the Irish Celts (no mention of the Irish nonCelts, Tom?). Have you read Mein Kampf, Tom? I sure haven't, but if there's a passage where Hitler shows contempt for the Irish do let us know. AH compared the Celts to the Slavs, Tom? Proof please--I bet you don't know much about this topic. What I do know is that Germanic Teutonic myth, all that primeval forest stuff that the Nazis loved, Valkyries and Woden, was quite compatible with respect for the ancient Celtic traditions. And I also know that the Nazis made a couple of propaganda films "based" in Ireland, with the British as villains of course. On the wider topic, TomSwinford is of course peddling garbage in asking Ireland to honor men who deserted her in her hour of greatest peril. What if the British had invaded Ireland, Tom, as was very much on the cards? Would you have backed your beloved Irish traitors when they started killing Irish people? There were tens of thousands of loyal men and women in the Irish Defense Forces who would have resisted a British invasion, just as they would have stood against a Nazi invasion. Tom obviously doesn't think Ireland is a real country, with its own foreign policy. De Valera was democratically elected, TomS, I know that sticks in your throat, you want Ireland to be just ToyTown, not a free nation. You're a snivelling disgrace.

• ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 03:18 PM EST

  Tom Swinford: Do you hold the Spanish, and Portuguese, and Swiss, and Swedes, to the same standard? How about the Finns who openly collaborated with Hitler? De Valera did as much as he could to help the Aliies which was acknowledged by Churchill after the war and the Americans. while still maintaining neutrality.

• ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 03:05 PM EST

  Rebelforce, in the face of the greatest threat to European civilization and human freedom in history, Dev allowed his grievance against England to blind him to a kind of evil that was never before witnessed on this earth. Had Hitler won, Ireland would have been enslaved. Believe it! Ironically, the English would have fared better in a pan European Third Reich - for Hitler considered the English, who were of Anglo-Saxon stock, to be Germanic, hence, like them - he had great admiration for England's ability to establish a global empire, conquering "lesser" peoples. Not so the Irish Celts for whom Hitler had only contempt, likening them to the hated Slavs (from which the word slave is derived), fit only to be servants and slaves. We Irish obsessively engage in self-delusion to a remarkable degree. In a nutshell: Between 1940 and mid 1942, Britain, a liberal democracy, fought against almost impossible odds to simply survive - and in surviving, Britain, our ancient enemy, ensured our survival. Now, there's an irony! Ireland's place in WW ll should have been alongside Britain, Canada, the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and the other democracies. Instead Dev sat it out and punished and ostracized the brave Irishmen who knew who the mortal enemy was. I honor them. The republic's treatment of them was dishonorable and shameful.

• solyeant | Jan 05, 2012, 02:06 PM EST

  In all the replies to this topic the hypocracy of the stance taken by the irish Government after the war is astounding They would refer to soldiers from the irish Army as Traitors yet refuse to recognise that Devalera had played his part in consorting with the supposed enenmy over the issue of St Angelo and the leitrim Corridor This revelation had it been widely exxposed just after the war may have allowed those returning as deserters the priviledge of knowing that what they did was in some way what the authorities turned a benefifical blind eye to namely tacit support for the cause against national socialism in its abhorrent extreme. Only retrospection allows us to corelate the two events and yet the result is different if the other piece of information is not known There were multiple examples of tacit support on all sides and knowledge of some has yet to be widely exposed making mockery of single events like the governments stance on "deserters" .

• ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 01:01 PM EST

  Sparklet,cheers for that.Im not taking offence anyway as I dont get my feelings hurt by people who dont know me so thats ok. Maybe SirPeter is just a bit upset that the Brits wouldnt give him the real title of 'Sir' so hes p*ssed off at me for not being an anti-Brit bigot. I agree with you 100% on your point in regards to the Irish in the British army.

• Sparklet | Jan 05, 2012, 12:45 PM EST

  Am I reading it wrong or is SirPeter being unnecessarily rude to Ciara? Does disagreeing with someone's opinion entitle them to be so abusive? And for the record, I don't think of them as fighting for Britain against the Nazis - they were fighting for Ireland against the Nazis.

• ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 12:25 PM EST

  One fought the Brits and one fought the nazi's. Who is comparing them?

• Rebelforce | Jan 05, 2012, 10:57 AM EST

  How can you compare an Irish lad who fought with England's Army with real, authentic Irish freedom fighters and heroes like Michael Collins and Eamon DeValera? You can't. You just can't compare the two. It's like trying to compare Benedict Arnold to George Washington.

• Rebelforce | Jan 05, 2012, 09:02 AM EST

  Sir Peter the Little, Her Majesty's loyal servant and Royal Overseer of Cesspool and Bilgewater, my dear, dear boy, you are letting our side down very badly indeed. All this jabbering gibberish, this gutter prose, redefining lower still the lowest common denominator with every stroke of your unholy and poisoned pen. It is painfully clear, old boy, that you are off your meds and hard on the bottle. Sir Peter, you are in a downward spiral and the laws of physics are quite clear on this point: it cannot end well for you. Bail out! I implore you, present your self at the nearest Garda station or check into a hospital or asylum where you can be reasonably restrained and given the medical care you so urgently need. Once your dementia medication is having the desired effect and you are again capable of rational and reasoned thought, you may wish to take some classes on remedial English to assist you in articulation. Now there's a good lad.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 05, 2012, 08:28 AM EST

  These postings show how many Irish and Irish Americans consider that Ireland is not a real country with its own government. This attitude is very insulting to Irish people who respect their country and its independence, as well as to the scores of thousands who kept faith with their oath to serve in the Irish Defense Forces and defend the democratically elected government of Ireland. Can't say I'm surprised, as I know that the leprechaun Little Irelanders really think their country is just a region of the UK.

• Scotchtommy | Jan 05, 2012, 02:45 AM EST

  For God's sake does nobody read history books anymore---- for the 46th and LAST time-these people were NOT deserters.They voluntarily resigned from the irish Army to join the British army.I won't argue that there were or - 5000 of them.They were part of the estimated 48,000 Free State citizens who served in the British forces during WW11.Some civlian volunteers ,most already living and working in the UK who were conscripted.When they got their British call up papers the vast majority chose to stay on and fight for the Allies when they could have gone back to Ireland.There were also thousands of volunteers from Northern Ireland (where conscription was not imposed)from BOTH sides of the sectarian divide.The case of Jim Maginnis was especially tragic - a Northern Ireland Catholic who won the Victoria Cross while fighting the Japanese>His comrades described him as the bravest man they 'd known.And after the war- he was hounded out of NI by his Catholic neighbours (bricks through windows ,shouting insults in the street, graffitti on his house at night).So Guys, regardless of your religious and political views - give these brave Irish men and women the repect and honour they deserve.

• cillowen | Jan 04, 2012, 11:23 PM EST

  The Iron Lady and "a well" Reagan were up each others kirster but sheep unable to connect dots rave about such nothings.

• antoman | Jan 04, 2012, 11:12 PM EST

  We might all be talking Japanese.

• sirpeter | Jan 04, 2012, 10:00 PM EST

  ciaradexy. They took an oath as an Irish soldier to protect the Irish Republic you miserable piece of dog sh*t.Any country in the world would have shot them dead.They are still here you know..WATCHING.Any oppressor be they German or English had better stay awake at night.Because they do travel.I sh*t on ye those who don't respect Irish neutrality during the war.Go on!! Fu*k off to England.Do it now!!Ye West Brit disloyal cancer.The Irish people pay billions to ANGLO irish bank.The most failed bank in the world.The clue is in the name.Swinford you will never be Irish and you will never be English.Which makes you mentally in limbo.Irish culture will change and evolve and the Irish people will still be unique.In a hundred years your beliefs will be no more.Your petty English loyalties will be gone as your kids sing to an Irish European tune.That's the future of Ireland for better or for worse.You don't see the German "master race" damning each other over for a percentage in the land they were born.They are loyal to the land of there birth. Damn ye. Damn ye a thousand times.

• sirpeter | Jan 04, 2012, 08:12 PM EST

  I do not know the motivations of the men who deserted but I will happily give them the benefit of the doubt that their motivations were pure and noble. They fought for a democracy that was hanging by a single thread onto its very survival (1940-1942). They fought to defeat the most brutal, evil, inhuman, murderous regime that ever existed on this earth. I honor them for this. They should have been pardoned long ago. Had Nazism triumphed, Ireland would have been enslaved, suffering a fate infinitely worse than British occupation. Folks not able to grasp this simple truth are profoundly ignorant, bordering on brain-dead stupid. I am proud that some Irishmen could see that the survival of democracy and freedom was in the balance, the loss of which would have ushered in an unimaginable horror and quite possible the destruction of the Irish race.

• ciaradexy | Jan 04, 2012, 07:28 PM EST

  Saoirse9, snap out of it. These men did what they had to do in order for their families to survive. Not everyone in the Republic of Ireland is a Republican or nationalist you know. People can make their own minds up and join armies just as Irish can join the US army. Why they'd want to, I dunno but its all about personal choice.

• gobdawpaddy | Jan 04, 2012, 07:24 PM EST

  At least these Irishmen displayed principle and courage. Taoiseach DeVelara nearly drowned in his own snot as he snivelled over to Kempel's residence in Dunlaoighre to offer the condolences of the Irish people on the death of Hitler. A spineless/snivelling coward.

• AlunPalmer | Jan 04, 2012, 07:10 PM EST

  They should refuse to accept their pardons, because they didn't do anything wrong.

• Saoirse9 | Jan 04, 2012, 06:54 PM EST

  They were traitors to their own country. They shouldn't've been let back into Ireland, period.

• jamesfsmith | Jan 04, 2012, 05:28 PM EST

  May pardon them??? These men should've been treated as heroes. What better way to be a deterent to invasion than to embed yourself in the other's guy's armed forces. In my Kindle book "Bobby Kennedy Befriends Rory O'Donnell" I illustrate this with a true story that occurred during US in Vietnam. James Francis Smith

• sirpeter | Jan 04, 2012, 05:00 PM EST

  Antoman.They deserted the Irish army during a very dangerous time for Ireland.I presume they took an oath to defend the Republic from invasion.That meant from the British as well.Britain was just as much a threat to Ireland.If the British felt the Irish ports were necessary to safeguard their own country.They would not have respected Irish neutrality.Neutrality was the best course of action and that was the decision.If the British took the Irish ports for British use.Hitler might have decided on an easy invasion of Ireland was worth while.It's not small defenseless nations that cause wars at all.But they can pay a big price.

• antoman | Jan 04, 2012, 04:19 PM EST

  Tis a good job I out rank you LongDan. Sit your ass down before you trip and fall.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 04, 2012, 04:00 PM EST

  There are various issues here - 1) What punishment do deserters get, 2) Do they get more, or less if they desert to fight for another country, 3) Do they get a court-martial, under standard military procedures, with the ability to defend themselves...1) The usual punishment was few days in prison for 'ordinary' deserters...this group received extra punishment, with no right to defend themselves...vindictive, non-judiciary FF justice... Compare and contrast with welcome given to Nazi activists?

• antoman | Jan 04, 2012, 01:39 PM EST

  @Sirpeter- You nearly foaming at he mouth my fellow Corkonian. They done as Irishmen have done for centuries..fought with foreign armies.

• sirpeter | Jan 04, 2012, 01:31 PM EST

  Those guys were nothing but deserters and nothing more than mercenaries.It was self-interest and better money that motivated them.A soldier fights hardest when fighting for his homeland and it's his duty to protect his homeland first and foremost.British deserters were shot by the British and most would say and rightly so.Refusing them back into any government department was correct.But this article is making out the government actively stopped them from getting ANY job.This is crap!!This is like saying the government had a finger in every pig farm and business in Ireland.It is also crap that a lot of Irish people wanted Germany to win the war.What foolishness.The Irish people were well aware of what was in store for us if the British were occupied by the Nazis.Pardoned!!They were lucky they were not shot.

• ancavker | Jan 04, 2012, 01:24 PM EST

  Nobody is or should be debating that defeating the Nazi's was of course the right thing to do. The point is, these 5,000 men, deserted from the Irish army as in deserted, as in deserters? What if England or Germany had invaded Ireland during WW II??

• ancavker | Jan 04, 2012, 01:21 PM EST

  antoman: 90% of the British army was Irish, really? Any facts to back that up with?? More than the English, Scots and Welsh??

• Rebelforce | Jan 04, 2012, 01:20 PM EST

  Nationalism led many Ukrainians, Rumanians, Hungarians, Finns and Croats to support the Germans during WWII. It was not that they were so enamored of Nazism. Rather, they saw Stalin's Russia as the far greater threat and enemy than Hitler's Germany. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". No doubt many Irish felt the same way regarding Britain's War with Germany. Why would the Irish want to go to war over getting the Germans out of Poland, while the British were holding a piece of Irish territory?

• ancavker | Jan 04, 2012, 01:20 PM EST

  Jim Cork: De Valera never took the Constitution off to Rome for approval. In fact he fought bitterly with the Catholic hierarchy behind the scenes and refused their request to declare in the constitution that Ireland was a Catholic country.

• newnation | Jan 04, 2012, 01:17 PM EST

  more proof that George knows nothing.. what a moron!

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 04, 2012, 12:40 PM EST

  GeorgeD - Thank you for correcting me. I should have said ‘Irishmen who fought for Nazi Germany…and returned unpunished’ - see ‘Hitler’s Irishmen’ by Terence O'Reilly…

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 04, 2012, 12:15 PM EST

  "Irish army deserters who fought for Nazi Germany…and returned unpunished!" --- Who were these people, OLoinsigh? They don't exist, outside your diseased imagination. I say you're talking lies and garbage, which is what you have been doing here for months.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 04, 2012, 12:14 PM EST

  Rebelforce - How insightful of you to know the motivation of all the men who went to fight...although some evidence would help?

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 04, 2012, 12:11 PM EST

  antoman - you are correct...

• Rebelforce | Jan 04, 2012, 12:05 PM EST

  Ofcourse those Irish who went to fight with England were doing it for the moolah. You think those boys went to war to get Germany out of Poland? Naturally, since England had forcibly partitioned Ireland against the democratic wishes of the vast majority of Irish people, the Irish people saw the British as the "real enemy" of Ireland, not Germany.

• antoman | Jan 04, 2012, 12:01 PM EST

  @LongDan- You are not an opinionated yank?

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 04, 2012, 11:47 AM EST

  antoman - Nuff said? Only if you're happy with a history of welcoming Nazi War Criminals but persecuting fellow citizens who fought them...so are you?

• antoman | Jan 04, 2012, 11:41 AM EST

  @LongDan- Operation Paperclip. Getting and taking to America Werner Von Braun. Nuff said.

• joan1954 | Jan 04, 2012, 11:37 AM EST

  I was recently watching a program on the History Channel on the final solution to the Jewish Question. What caught my eye was a memo by Eichmann that had they invaded Ireland its 4000 Jews would have been sent to the extermination camps. The Nazis were no friends of Ireland. What is the total number of Irish who went to help Britain? We will never know the number that went for the money to send home to keep a roof over families heads and for food. The men should be pardoned and now.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 04, 2012, 11:35 AM EST

  Of course these men can never, ever be pardoned. To do so would be to dishonour the memory of heroes like Otto Skorzeny, Helmut Clissmann, Albert Folens, Andrija Artukovic and all the other Nazis who were welcomed to Ireland after the untimely collapse of the Fatherland, (not to mention the Irish army deserters who fought for Nazi Germany…and returned unpunished!!)

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 04, 2012, 11:35 AM EST

  For those who don't know, Shatter is a TD, and of the Jewish faith. Do you have a problem with that, Rebelforce?

• merefalow | Jan 04, 2012, 11:31 AM EST

  a deserter is a deserter aspecially when you desert to the enemy.

• colkelley | Jan 04, 2012, 11:26 AM EST

  The Great Shame is that the Irish people did not rise up and join the rest of the world in resisting the Third Reich. And ANTOMAN, the British Army also included many regiments of Scots and Welsh as well as Irishman...try learning a little history before you make a fool of yourself again.

• Rebelforce | Jan 04, 2012, 11:12 AM EST

  Ireland's "Minister for Justice" is named Alan Shitter? There's a good "Irish" name for you. LOL

• RockNReel | Jan 04, 2012, 11:01 AM EST

  JIMCORK has it exactly right. The Nazis were no friends of Ireland and god help us all if they had won so fair play to those men who rose up and fought against them. The Sheep and Rome lovers in Ireland were too cowardly to speak out . Not much has changed !!

• hyattsville | Jan 04, 2012, 10:51 AM EST

  Valentiaman and JimCork both make valid points.

• JohnKinMD | Jan 04, 2012, 10:43 AM EST

  They deserted, and should have been shot.

• seanmac50 | Jan 04, 2012, 10:28 AM EST

  We must not forget that those men deserted from the Irish army in wartime. Ireland needed it's army to remain neutral, with continuing threats from Churchill and Hitler. In some countries deserters during wartime are shot!

• antoman | Jan 04, 2012, 10:28 AM EST

  @ReturnedYank- Kinda like the VC. The Cork equivalent like.

• clevelander | Jan 04, 2012, 10:26 AM EST

  "about five per cent of the Irish Army deserted and joined their British counterparts to fight against fascism." DESERTED? These "soldiers" are lucky the Irish Gov't did not throw them in jail or worse. They should have stayed in england. No Pardon for deserters. Period.

• ReturnedYank | Jan 04, 2012, 10:09 AM EST

  Antoman, I once read that 1/3 of Washington's army was Irish born (Ulster Scots mostly). JimCork, while no fan of Dev, you have to remember the context at the time: The Free State was less than 20 years independent -- of Britain! It was poor and had an army whose only real way of fighting off invaders (British or German) was a return to geurilla warfare.

• ValentiaMan | Jan 04, 2012, 10:08 AM EST

  The majority of Irishmen who fought for the British at the time did so for three reasons: A Shilling in their Pocket, boots on their feet and an arse on their trousers. Ideals are a luxury they couldn't afford.

• JimCork | Jan 04, 2012, 09:50 AM EST

  A pardon! I agree with Antoman in many ways.These men were heroes going off to fight fascism. Nazi Germany was no friend of the Irish. Irish neutrality (cop out) would never have been respected by Hitler once he had removed Britain from his path. De Valera, the autocrat, barely consulted his own ministers about neutrality before declaring it in his own personal feud with Churchill. Remember De Valera also took the Irish constitution off to Rome for the Pope's imprimatur before having it ratified by the Irish Parliament, never mind the part he played in Michael Collins's murder. A pardon from what they did in the time of De Valera's priest ridden, mysognistic, autocratic government. They went to defend freedom, no pardon needed, they were men with guts, heroes.

• antoman | Jan 04, 2012, 09:29 AM EST

  Up until the 19th century 90% of the English Army was composed of Irishmen. Americans, when fighting for a country of their own. Must have killed 100's, 1000's of Irish. A pardon? For doing what we've done for centuries. Fight for foreign armies. Keep your pardon. An Irishman is an independent man.