A senior Goldman Sachs figure and Irish government advisor on American projects has stated that Ireland needs to decide what it wants to do about its Diaspora and that he feels the Irish are deeply conflicted about their emigrants.
Adrian Jones, a Roscommon native and managing director at Goldman where he co-heads the firm’s America's equities business, was honoree this week at this year's Irish America Magazine Wall Street 50.
In an interview with Sheila Langan in the magazine he stated;
"Over the ten years leading up to 2008, 2009, Irish people were very badly let down by their government and by their public servants. You had a classic credit bubble that was allowed to build to epic proportions. There was a tremendous amount of groupthink, and it became an extremely difficult environment for somebody to go against the grain.
"I think one of the challenges of a very small country, particularly a cohesive, homogenous, small country, is that it is very difficult to speak out, particularly when there are so many vested interests who are very focused on keeping things moving in one particular direction. And, very unfortunately, that’s what developed in Ireland.
He says as a result of this the Irish are wary of their emigrants
"I think Irish people, generally, are a little wary of emigrants. Emigration is so much part of Irish life. We speak very well of people who go away and do well. But we get a little concerned when those people come back and tell us how things could have been done better. As Richard Harris tells Tom Berenger in [the film version of] The Field, “Go home, Yank. Go home.” There’s an element of that in Irish life. And I think official Ireland – and by that I mean not the agencies but Dublin, be it government or public sector – is struggling to figure out the next leg of this Diaspora thing."
He stated there was a European bias in Ireland that militated against the American Irish contribution.
"Official Ireland is very European focused. They’ve been working as part of the ECC and then the EU since 1973. This may sound politically incorrect, but the vast majority of the Irish Diaspora that can have any influence on the situation is in the United States, and to some degree in the U.K. So you’ve got a bit of a challenge in that you’ve got public sector, European-focused official Ireland trying to figure out what to do about private sector, U.S.-based ex-pats, and official Ireland seems to me a lot more focused on how to control this as distinct from how to enable it."
Speaking about the Diaspora initiative launched by the government he stated "I think the Irish agencies abroad have for many years been very effective at leveraging the Diaspora – long before we even called it the Diaspora. They’ve always been thoughtful, smart and creative at figuring out ways that they can use relationships to help Irish companies, to find investment for Ireland.
"In the late stages of the crisis, official Ireland, in my view, started groping around on this whole issue of “the Diaspora,” which resulted in the first Global Irish Network conference at Farmleigh in 2009. I was invited to join, and I wasn’t able to attend the initial conference, but I did attend the Dublin Castle conference last October, and there was an interim conference here in New York in November 2010."
He says far more use should be made of leading Irish American figures. "Craig Barrett, the former chairman and CEO of Intel, announced that he was willing to sit on any Irish state board without pay. Any other institution in the world within 20 minutes would have signed him up. And Craig Barrett is still waiting to get a call from Dublin. There’s a reason for that, and to me it gets back to the awareness and the need for control. Craig Barrett isn’t part of the Irish system, so he isn’t beholden to anybody. He’ll call it the way he sees it. And I think official Ireland is somewhat anxious about that.
"One other example. I went to the interim conference the Global Irish Network (GIN) hosted at the Irish Consulate in New York in November 2010. One of the speakers was a minister from the previous government, and she said a couple of interesting things that day. When she was asked what she wanted of the GIN, she said she wanted cheerleaders. Which, I think, made for an awkward moment. She also said everything in Ireland was fine, that the Irish government was fully funded, and that the writing earlier that week in The Journal [that Ireland was headed for a bailout] was misinformed.
“You had a group of people in the room with a great deal of good will for Ireland, but they were uncomfortable about being asked to be cheerleaders, and they were very uncomfortable about being patronized. If they didn’t feel that way at the time, they certainly felt patronized a week later when Ireland formally requested a bailout.
"Official Ireland needs to figure out precisely what it wants to do about the GIN and the Diaspora. Because there is still a great deal of good will. When I was in Dublin Castle at the GIN conference last year, there were people in that room who could help a great deal through different types of initiatives. But they are busy people and the goodwill isn’t going to last forever, and somebody needs to harness that. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that there’s anybody in the Global Irish Network or the Diaspora who can change the rules under which the Irish government is trying to work right now or come up with something they haven’t already figured out; Ireland has very few strategic choices given the financial constraints it’s living under. But a great deal of what the Diaspora can do is at a micro level.
"There’s an opportunity to help shape future government policy and future regulation, and to provide some help in governance and oversight on public boards. They can contribute by helping the universities provide world-class education, by helping Irish entrepreneurs, by sitting on the boards of Irish companies and helping them expand into markets like this, which are brutally competitive and need local expertise. They can work with new immigrants – and there are going to be a lot more immigrants – to assimilate. There are huge opportunities like that for the network, but there has to be accountability and follow through."
Jones, a former Irish Army Officer who served in Lebanon before moving to America with his US born-wife Christina supports current government efforts to bail Ireland out. "I’m supportive of what the government is doing. I think this government inherited a very, very bad hand of cards. If people think the Obama administration inherited challenges, they should look at the Irish situation. I’ve met several of the members of the current government through the Global Irish Network (GIN) and when they come to New York, and I think that they are genuinely committed to doing the right thing, as they see it, to the absolute degree that they can."
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.bunkerhill | Sep 27, 2012, 01:39 PM EDT
I don't know how they did it, but somehow Irish born parents or ancestors passed on a tremendous love of Ireland, it's culture and history to their diaspora no matter where they went. How many nationalities do you know who refer to their homeland and "a little bit of heaven?" So many Irish songs reflect the beauty of their homeland, love of their parents and countrymen, the beauty of their women and the bravery of their men And then there are the equally sad songs of emigrants sailing away, often forever, from everyone and every thing they loved. I wonder if the Irish Government could set up a site where the Irish diaspora could contribute whatever they can to the tiny island we all love so well? I know we would love to contribute to make sure Ireland, it's people, history and culture are preserved.
Smyrnian | Sep 27, 2012, 07:51 AM EDT
Labels and name calling offer no benefit to anyone. Ease up guys.
molliepmac | Sep 27, 2012, 05:13 AM EDT
Curitiba; Ciara isnt Citizenship Minister either. Roy Keane has children born in England. Plastic Paddies by her and by his rule who would never be able to play for Ireland. Irish soccer only did well with Plastic Paddies in the team. The GAA thrives in the UK - among the Irish community - and now interest is growing outside of the community. Ciara, how to quantify the support given to Ireland both financial and practical over the last 90 years by Plastic Paddies. How to value the benefits to Ireland over the years....until we were embarrased by the Celtic Tiger excesses. I know you are going to say we didnt ask for help.....but then what would you know?
Curitiba | Sep 27, 2012, 02:51 AM EDT
Since when has Roy Keane been Citizenship Minister? Who gave him the right to decide who is Irish and who is not?
ciaradexy | Sep 26, 2012, 05:41 PM EDT
Curitiba, the link I was talking about was the fact that Irish people played on these teams. Actual Irish born and bred, not plastic Paddies. Even Roy Keane has come out and said enough with the plastic paddies playing on the Rep. of Irelands football team. Its time to get Irish playing not relatives of Irish people. Another reason irish people follow these teams is because they are obviously better than most LOI teams. Im not into football, Im more of a GAA fan so I cant speak from experience but my friends who do follow British teams also like the fact that they can spend 40 minutes on a plane and head to see their favourite team in action. Nothing wrong with that either.
Curitiba | Sep 26, 2012, 03:44 PM EDT
ancavker: yes, her point about the football was totally contradictory, because she asserted that there was no such thing as an Irish connection, if you weren't born in Ireland, you weren't Irish. Except if it involved football. So there was a whole load of arbitrary, unconnected rules that she seemed to have invented regarding who was Irish and who wasn't. But she wasn't alone. Ciaradexy simply represented an entrenched attitude that many people in Ireland have regarding the Diaspora. My disagreement with her was based on the contention that I don't see any distinction between Irish born and non-Irish born, it was the common ancestry that mattered.
Curitiba | Sep 26, 2012, 03:30 PM EDT
Smyrnian: Perhaps someone could get the ball rolling by lobbying RTE to commission a series called "Ireland's Lost Tribes" to to inform and educate Irish people everywhere of all places of birth about such communities that have been cut off from mainstream Irish culture, as well as putting the stories of the better-known migrations to the UK and the USA. I only found out about the South American Irish a few years ago. On my many trips to Ireland and during my time living there, I never heard of it. Sometimes, these type of historical events exist as a folk memory, but I never heard anyone mention it, not even very old people. I say that because they might have had uncles, great aunts, etc, who their parents or grand parents might have told them about.
Smyrnian | Sep 26, 2012, 12:37 PM EDT
Curitiba - I agree with you entirely concerning the independent communication/relationships between the diaspora without routing it through Ireland. I am Irish born and I have spent time in S. America and I was aware of the Irish Argentine connection (but not as well as I should have been). I was also very pleasantly surprised by the Irish connection to Chile, where I spent some time. Gen. Bernardo O'Higgins etc. and many people of Irish descent there. Wonderful to see and experience - fabulous people down there! The Irish born are very unaware of the size and extent of their own diaspora...which is a great pity.
ancavker | Sep 26, 2012, 10:15 AM EDT
curitiba: One more thing I find ironic with the whole Plastic Paddy nonsense, is the whole Irish fascination with English football teams, such as Man U, and Liverpool. Ciaradexy used to post that Irish people follow them because so many have Irish connections, and yet would this not mean that these players too are Plastic Paddies? Even the ones that were born in Ireland that may now live in England, and their children who might be born in England, are they not Plastic Paddies? So the Irish in Ireland disparage them as Plastic Paddies, but at the same time we are told love them because of their Irish connections. So which is it?
Curitiba | Sep 26, 2012, 02:50 AM EDT
Stiofain: I had a Welsh acquaintance once who travelled to Patagonia to visit this village. Having no Castellano, and they no English, they were able to communicate in Welsh. I found this fascinating. Another reason to encourage Irish language learning among the Diaspora.
Stiofain | Sep 25, 2012, 06:54 PM EDT
Also, there is a Welsh speaking community in Patagonia, established in 1865.
Curitiba | Sep 25, 2012, 06:01 PM EDT
WoundedKnee: I must admit I didn't know that. I was under the impression that the present Irish-Argentine population were descended from about 2000 migrants who arrived in the late 1800's and the reason their present numbers were so large was because they are now of mixed ancestry. I'm happy to stand corrected on that one. molliepmac: Perhaps IC should have a Castellano version, for the Argentine-Irish.
WoundedKnee | Sep 25, 2012, 12:54 PM EDT
Curitiba: A couple of minor corrections. First, Irish emigration to Argentina is a much older tradition that you state. It began in the 1820s and its high point was probably the 1860s. By the 1890s it had tapered off. On another point, your fear that "perhaps depopulation is Ireland's fate" is unfounded, as any visit to Ireland will show. Ireland will be full of people, but they won't be Irish.
bunkerhill | Sep 25, 2012, 11:27 AM EDT
Jews who left the middle East 2,000 years ago still idenfity as Jews and work daily to get money and help for Israel. They identify as a tribe more than a nationality and the people in Israel are happy to accept all of their help. To my mind the Irish diaspora thought of themselves as a tribe too and have always worked to keep the culture of their ancient homeland alive along with helping the native Irish. It is interesting that the Jews welcome all the help while "some" Irish are so negative towards help. "Some" Irish seem to have a negative outlook on just about everything and in fact seem to have very little good to say about themselves. It would be interesting to know what makes them that way, while most are so positive.
molliepmac | Sep 25, 2012, 04:43 AM EDT
Curitba; Well said. The Argentine Irish Newspaper is The Southern Cross/La Cruz Del Sur established 1875 and their Club - The Hurling Club Buenos Aires. A very proud heritage. I doubt many in Ireland know anything about it. Those in Ireland are mostly unaware of the support of the Diaspora - Irelands Champions - support in terms of speaking up and defending Ireland ( often at a cost ) as well as buying Irish goods and produce. Who could quantify the benefits brought to Ireland through the actions of the diaspora.
Curitiba | Sep 24, 2012, 06:40 PM EDT
I agree, Smyrnian. But there is one further thing I wish to propose. Before the establishment of this website, the Irish Americans and the Irish community in the UK were only vaguely aware of each other. But since I have joined this website, I have learned much about Irish Americans, and indeed had the opportunity to communicate with them and debate issues common to us all. We don't need to route everything through Ireland like some kind of telephone exchange. There is no reason why the Irish American community cannot establish links with its counterpart in the UK, and indeed anywhere where Irish people to be found. Did you know that there are about 500,000 people in Argentina of Irish descent, for instance? They are almost completely forgotten by the rest of the Irish world as they are descended from a wave of emigration in the 1890's.
Smyrnian | Sep 24, 2012, 06:23 PM EDT
Curitiba - You are exactly on target and well said too! Also, concerning the dislike by the Irish at home for their departed emigrated brethren, they generally do not care for them. It certainly is true and I have observed it first hand over 40 years and it occurs across the population. Now, having said that, before anyone has a stroke over that statement, there are no absolutes and yes, there are exceptions of course.
Curitiba | Sep 24, 2012, 05:22 PM EDT
ancavker: It's true also about the snobbery that the Irish who came over to England from the 1980's onwards had towards the Irish community in Britain because like many of my contemporaries, my parents came from Irish rural backgrounds and as they did not have access to higher education in Ireland, came to work in the building and health industries, as many others did. The ones that came much later were quite often (but not always) well educated and probably quite ashamed of those that came before them. Not realising the huge debt they owed those men and women who performed backbreaking work on the construction sites, factories and hospitals of England and sent billions home to Ireland to keep it afloat. No way would Ireland have survived without the huge sums of money that the 1 million emigrants sent back, often up to half their wages every week. Without that money, Ireland would have ended up an economic basket case much earlier and the country would have become depopulated, like the Scottish Highlands in the 1800's. With no source of remittances coming from emigrants these days, perhaps depopulation is Ireland's fate, delayed by 50 years.
Curitiba | Sep 24, 2012, 04:42 PM EDT
ancavker: your analysis is completely accurate, and you have pinpointed exactly when all this irrational madness came about. I have met a few Irish-born who see no distinction between Irish who are born at home or abroad, but they are considerably fewer that the anti-Diaspora "bigots" (or perhaps ignoramuses would be more accurate).
ancavker | Sep 24, 2012, 03:51 PM EDT
hassny: Actually more than a few of the Irish/Irish-AMericans in NY, were warning that the madness of the Celtic Tiger would end badly. Many of the Irish coming to NYC to go shopping at the time, would have none of it, and chalked up our concern to jealousy.
ancavker | Sep 24, 2012, 03:49 PM EDT
Curtibia: That being said, I also know quite a few Irish who have no dislike of the Irish in America or England, and welcome them when they come to visit. What makes it shocking though is that for those who do not like us, the level of intensity of their feelings is scary.
ancavker | Sep 24, 2012, 03:44 PM EDT
Curitiba: I agree and I have seen much of it. I am Irish born but came to the U.S. as a child.I get the plastic paddy thing too, until I tell them that, but then I still get grief because I identify with the so called plastic paddies. Ironically it is more than a few Irish who really should wear the plastic paddy name tag. As although they were born in Ireland they denigrate what little is left of Irish culture. And they copy and ape either English or American culture. They can laugh at the U.S. tourists in the green pants suit and Arran sweater, but they are just as laughable when they attempt to dress and act like what they perceive to be American or English. The whole plastic paddy nonsense came from when educated Irish went to England during the 80's, and looked down on the descandants of the Irish who came in the 40's and 50's who went into the building trades and other manual type labor. It was a way of them thinking they were better than those who came before them. How ironic is that.
Curitiba | Sep 24, 2012, 01:14 PM EDT
Oldboreen, I totally agree with your synopsis. It is so close to my own experience, I could have almost written the same thing myself, word for word! Tayandcake: the problem is not being called "plastic paddy", I identify strongly with being a "plastic paddy", as I am an Irish person who was not born in Ireland. Indeed, the million or so French people who were born in Algeria during the colonial period were known as "les pied-noirs (blackfeet)", which is a direct parallel with the Irish experience abroad. No, the problem is the denial that Irish people exist outside Ireland, that your identity is totally dissolved by being born abroad and those Irish-born that aggressively perpetuate this lie is what bothers me, not being ribbed for having a regional accent.
Curitiba | Sep 24, 2012, 01:05 PM EDT
I said it Gavin, because I have been on the receiving end of what you would define as "bigotry" from those Irish-born who perpetuate stereotypes of the Diaspora as "fake Irish", "wannabees", and display virulent hatred towards those who are known to identify with being Irish. The most famous case of this was by a certain well-know football player towards his manager, but not every case makes the press. I don't understand your argument, you seem to be saying anyone who opposes intolerance and bigotry is a bigot? Are you quite sure about that? As for not knowing you, well I have never met oldboreen either, but we have both been on the receiving end of this. Your dictionary definition of "bigotry" doesn't apply to anything I have said, so...?
Gavin | Sep 24, 2012, 11:30 AM EDT
@oldboreen Or you could elabarate a little more and call it" Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot, defined by Merriam-Webster as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance".[1] Bigotry may be based on real or perceived characteristics, including age, disability, dissension from popular opinions, economic status, ethnicity, gender identity, language, nationality, personal habits, political alignment, race, region, religious or spiritual belief, sex, species, or sexual orientation. Bigotry is sometimes developed into an ideology or world view. all from Wikipedia, and a great little quote from Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. described bigotry in the following quotation: "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract." I'm not denying bigots exist in Ireland, my point is simple that Curitiba is also one, notice the words he used "but I know the searing hatred and contempt that Irish born people have for their diaspora" Dress it up however you like but its there in black and white.
oldboreen | Sep 24, 2012, 11:08 AM EDT
@Curitiba-I wholeheartedly agree with you. There is nothing many of the Irish born enjoy more, than putting down those of Irish ethicity/parentage not born in Ireland. It's ignorance of course-and it pains me to have to say that about my own people-but the so called 'real Irish' are often so smug,emphatically asserting that to be Irish, one must be born in Ireland. They become so agitated, it's as though they feel chalenged! Like thousands more not born in Ireland,I'm fortunate enough to possess an Irish passport.It states quite clearly that I am an Irish national. But apparently,acording to the bigots to whom I refer,I'm not! So it begs the question doesn't it? What's the point of having an Irish passport! OED definition by the way-'ethnic-adjective-of a racial group;relating to race or culture'
MickRegan | Sep 24, 2012, 11:02 AM EDT
Prior to the general election both government parties were decrying the scourge of emigration. It was part of the election spin. Now in government getting any mention of emigration is like drawing blood from a stone. When it is brought up the standard response is that those leaving will enhance their skills/experience, and that those skills will hopefully benefit Ireland in the future. So the question - if those future skills are deemed valuable why won't the government avail of the skills that are available today? Surely the country needs them now and i see no difference between the emigrants of the last couple of decades and those leaving today.
Laochra | Sep 24, 2012, 10:24 AM EDT
Adrian Jones is spot on, and a Rossie to boot! Ireland needs to broaden her thinking beyond Europe to get out of mess. I go home each summer and the situation continues to worsen. Ireland cannot count on Germany/France to bail it would when Spain and Italy are teetering. They need to look to the US and UK. Adrian, how about telling Chuck Schumer to let the Irish back into the US?
tievemore | Sep 23, 2012, 11:56 PM EDT
I tend to agree with bimjimmy's and eiriamach's position. While I wholeheartedly agree Official Ireland would be wise to accept Irish-America's goodwill and advice, having a Wall Street executive championing this position is counter-productive. Perhaps if concerned Wall Street executives concentrated more on "speaking out" in their insular board rooms when they saw evidence of "groupthink" leading down a disastrous path, the country and the world economy would be better positioned today. However, when one is saddled with the "golden handcuffs", perhaps it's easier to criticize "Official Ireland" and state you feel "patronized", rather than examining/questioning your own industry's short-comings and risk losing those "golden handcuffs".
TayandCake | Sep 23, 2012, 08:13 PM EDT
Curitiba I know a fella from Co Louth who supports Dublin GAA, I call him a Plastic Dubliner. Not only do we hate others but ourselves to. Pirates had great fun didn't they, going round the world getting up to all sorts, sign.
eiriamach | Sep 23, 2012, 06:37 PM EDT
Beware of Adrian Jones' anti-European-economics bias. As an insulated Wall Streeter, he sees more of a difference between US and European approaches than can actually exist on any national scale in a global economy. His brand of advice is myopic. It has brought the USA to the brink of financial catastrophe and helped trigger crashes in other countries. The European economic vision, on the other hand, has its own problems--it overflows too easily into the domestic political affairs of the diverse nations of the EU--but it's not narrow like Jones'. It's more realistic than any Wall Streeter's ideas about the extent to which governments must negotiate economic cooperation with each other.
MichaelMcGrath | Sep 23, 2012, 05:39 PM EDT
With over a million immigrants in here in Ireland now, many of them dependent on State help, isn't it a bit late to be talking about turning to the Diaspora? Whilst admitting that a dreadful mistake was made in mass immigration into Ireland with former Government Minister Mary Harney announcing a decade ago that "Ireland needs a million foreign workers"we don't have anything left to offer the Diaspora now. Thus David McWilliams' planned grand Diaspora project, as described in his book "The Generation Game" won't happen now while we borrow the funds just to pay all the extra billions in health, education, housing, welfare etc., and this looks like al we will be doing for the foreseeable future. Because we have hundreds of thousands of people in here from all over the world with nowhere else to go - and they're still coming in. And if the Diaspora want to come there's nothing stopping them either, there's the same Open Door there that all of a million or more immigrabnts have been pouring through.
bimjimmy | Sep 23, 2012, 03:27 PM EDT
I beg your pardon, but with Wall Street's ACTIVE and SUBSTANTIAL part in the recent global financial near-collapse I don't see any qualification for that segment of the business world having the RIGHT to be unhappy with people not taking their advice. Greed, corruption and self-entitlement have been almost the sole earmarks of Wall Street for decades, yet whole countries are supposed to take their advice. I don't think so. While the Wall Street types are sipping cocktails in their new multi-million yachts or homes on the water, those people whose money they stole are reduced to homelessness and begging. Get a grip, Wall Street... reality does not seem to be anywhere in your sights, and IMHO you are the LAST people anyone should be taking advice from.
Curitiba | Sep 23, 2012, 03:25 PM EDT
CitizenWhy: The reason why the Irish Diaspora is relevant is because organisations and individuals from overseas who are in a position to help and advise on Ireland's desperate financial situation would be more likely to fight Ireland's corner, even though it may not be beneficial to the markets in the short term. Non-Irish advisers might be looking to pull the plug on the country if they feel it is a basket case because they have no interest in the country itself beyond the financial aspect.
Gavin | Sep 23, 2012, 03:18 PM EDT
Like I said pick up a dictionary
Curitiba | Sep 23, 2012, 03:08 PM EDT
How can I be a bigot, Gavin? I am merely criticising a certain section of people who I have a shared ancestry with. If I was criticising non-Irish people on the basis of perceived stereotypes, I would be a bigot, but I am criticising those Irish-born who denigrate the vast amount of people of Irish ancestry who are told they are not Irish and face hostility from Irish people when they try and assert their Irish ancestry. Then again, I wouldn't call those who bash the Diaspora bigots either as they are insulting their fellow Irish Celts who are not born in Ireland. I would call that extreme ignorance and narrow-mindedness.
CitizenWhy | Sep 23, 2012, 03:00 PM EDT
Some of the foreign business people operating in Ireland, of Irish or or non-Irish origin, have had some excellent advice on how to train Irish youth for real jobs not just in Ireland but also in the UK and Europe, Angola, and the Americas and Australia. So again the Diaspora issue is not very relevant. ... the Irish economy, when closely scrutinized, is in big trouble. I believe that much of this trouble comes from the imposed austerities but also from the reality that Ireland is a small consumer market (with a debt burden far beyond the capacity of that market to generate taxes) that can generate only so many business enterprises serving that market in competition with foreign enterprises and that any large, successful Irish based business must succeed on exports. Now that’s that’s where the Irish Diaspora might help. But given the shrinking economies of most nations exporting is not necessarily going to succeed. The other approach is to increase money spent in Ireland through tourism. In my view Ireland defines tourism too narrowly and needs to look at creating institutions such as language camps where people from all over the world can come to learn English, Mandarin or German, and some environmental camps, or other learning camps, especially for the retired. But that really is none of my business since I am thinking from a distance, not really in touch with conditions on the ground. I also think that experts from France could be helpful in expanding the tourist assets of Ireland. ... Why do i say that irealnd is in big trouble? Its; GDP is OK, buy its GNP is very bad, GNP being the total economic activity within the country as opposed to the GDP’s inclusion of the cash value of exports. In regard to Ireland many exports, which swell the numbers of Ireland’s GNP, are really just transfers, for tax purposes, to the EU, of goods made outside Ireland.
CitizenWhy | Sep 23, 2012, 02:58 PM EDT
I find it disturbing that there is no discussion in the EU of monitoring and limiting capital inflows into small countries such as Ireland. That is what caused the current dilemma - foreign banks lending far too much money to privately owned Irish banks which then proceeded to use that hugely excessive capital in foolish real estate speculation leading to the crash. But while the speculation was in a frenzy tax revenues increased, leading to expanded government spending. Brazil, learning its debt lessons and determined to stay out of the oppressive clutches of the IMF and the World Bank, does limit capital inflow while welcoming investment in actual businesses operating in or being established in Brazil.
CitizenWhy | Sep 23, 2012, 02:56 PM EDT
Curitiba, OK, I will try in parts ... When it comes to economists and experts I do not see why being of Irish origin makes any difference. Any origin will do if the advice is based on Irish realities and points a way to solutions. So on that score I believe the Diaspora issue is not relevant. ... But economic advice ranges. One end advocates disowning the debt incurred by Irish privately owned banks and now self-imposed and EU-imposed on the Irish government and tax payer. Cutting services seems to be happening but no cutting of government (personnel or compensation). The fact is that Ireland cannot disown any of this bank debt because the EU (that is, the ECB and the IMF in concert with Germany) insists that Ireland pay these debts, largely to privately owned German, UK and French banks in order to help keep the EU banking system from serious injury. Ireland feels it must obey because it is entirely dependent on loans from the ECB and the IMF to pay for its normal operating activities as well as to make payments on its huge debts. .. Another end of economic advice focuses on specific ways to impose austerity by cutting services and government operations. This austerity process, wise or unwise, is seen by the ECB and the IMF and Germany as an EU wide solution to the EU’s banking, capital, and government crises. It is not just a matter for Ireland, in their view. ... Ireland is highly EU oriented, of course, because it has chosen to be and it also, in current circumstances, must be.
KerryGold | Sep 23, 2012, 02:49 PM EDT
I think its stupid that the Irish government did not bite the hands off these people, to get them to sit on State boards. I mean their expertise alone should be enough, never mind that they would do it for free. That annoys me that Irish government wont use this resource and build bridges with the Diaspora all over the world. In the long run it could bring business into this country and be very beneficial. But no the government want to give their friends easy money for an easy job. It annoys me that the government are too pro-european or to phrase it better the yes boys of Europe. The government would do well to remember the advert on Irish tv which stated "it's a small island, but we have reached the world from here". That is our people have emigrated to every corner of the world and we should have a day in Ireland, where we remember those that have a difference to their new communities abroad, those that promoted Irishness abroad, did something to help the Irish community abroad and those that lost their lives abroad. Just for clarification, on my part there is no anti plastic paddy bigotry, we all have a heritage that we should be proud of and no-one with plastic paddy jokes can change that.
Gavin | Sep 23, 2012, 02:45 PM EDT
Well you would loose the wager, I don't choose to run with fools and I don't take kindly to them either, also I don't indulged in any plastic paddy bashing, I have always gotten on well with with the vast majority of Americans i've met. I might also bring to light the hypocrisy of your complaints about the Irish being bigots as you yourself have shown yourself to clearly be a bigot yourself, if your confused as to the meaning of the word I suggest you pick up a dictionary then go back and analyse your prior comments, good day
Curitiba | Sep 23, 2012, 02:31 PM EDT
No plotting about it, Gavin. I've had anti-Plastic Paddy bigotry directed at me enough times to make me cynical about Irish born people and their attitude towards the diaspora. I don't know if you've indulged in any plastic paddy bashing yourself, but I'd wager you know plenty who have.
Gavin | Sep 23, 2012, 02:23 PM EDT
@Curitiba You write "but I know the searing hatred and contempt that Irish born people have for their diaspora" One of the only things im 100% sure of in life is that you haven't met the 6 odd million people living on the island of Ireland, im also sure sure that you haven't met me either! So how is it that you can justify branding me and the entire population with your statement? Im tired of hearing of people who pretend to be overly smart and all knowing and that are able to tell me what I am before you even learn the first thing about me, Its a mark of foolishness. I realise there is a problem with some people in Ireland that they are wary and often foolish in their disregard in taking advice given from others, but it is in no means the majority and it is certainly not how I would counduct myself. Also your choice of wording is ridiculous "searing hatred", do you think we all scurry around in dark allies planing your downfall? Personally ill take advice from whoever seams responsible enough to give it but I wouldn't consider for a minute taking advice from a bigot like yourself.
CitizenWhy | Sep 23, 2012, 02:02 PM EDT
Curitiba, I wrong a somewhat long and somewhat thoughtful reply but the post was kicked out and not posted by this site's technology.
Searlit | Sep 23, 2012, 12:56 PM EDT
I have a question for Adrian Jones. Why are you saying that "...there are going to be a lot more immigrants - to assimilate..."?
Curitiba | Sep 23, 2012, 12:37 PM EDT
CitizenWhy: How is Ireland so fundamentally different from other countries that advice from 2nd or 3rd, etc. generation Irish economists and others cannot be given. The EU and IMF aren't run by Irish people, yet they have no qualms about sticking their beak in.
haasny007 | Sep 23, 2012, 11:31 AM EDT
The Irish diaspora fell over each other praising the Celtic Tiger in the last decade, cheering on the bubble buildup all the way up to the crash. It's a bit disingenuous now to lay the blame squarely on the Irish government for not having done more to regulate banks better and slow the craziness in the real estate market. We didn't hear any warnings from smarty pants like Adrian Jones back then. Hindsight is always 20/20.
handsome68 | Sep 23, 2012, 11:24 AM EDT
Am so impressed by the comments given by others that, on this one, I cover my mouth with my hand. This is an excellent article and Adrian Jones is obviously a very intelligent man.
Padraig8 | Sep 23, 2012, 11:11 AM EDT
When in Ireland i do the same as when visiting a friend or neighbor, if asked i give my opinion but if not i mind my business. The Irish Citizens have no lack of Knowledge so they dont really need advice from me or any other Visitor regardless of my Irish genes.
CitizenWhy | Sep 23, 2012, 10:08 AM EDT
Advice from those who have grown up in Ireland and gone away and succeeded, if given diplomatically, might be helpful. Those with more remote Irish connections, like me (parents born and raised there), would probably not understand Ireland well enough to give useful advice.
Curitiba | Sep 23, 2012, 09:56 AM EDT
Why would anyone want to help anyone who displays open contempt and ridicules your efforts to establish mutual links of cooperation based on ethnic ties? If an British-born Plastic Paddy or an Irish American appealed to our common bond and shared ancestry for assistance of some kind, I would do my best to help, because I would know that they were genuine in their intentions, but I know the searing hatred and contempt that Irish born people have for their diaspora. They made their bed, let them lie in it.
Smyrnian | Sep 23, 2012, 09:28 AM EDT
Adrian jones has it right. We can appreciate that Ireland is certainly less homogenous than it used to be but his central tenet is correct. To put it less eloquently but perhaps more succinctly, the Irish at home want nothing to do with it's emigrants, particularly its U.S. based emigrants. I have been returning many times a year for the last 40 odd years and I see it very clearly. It's not a comfortable or pleasing thing but it is very true.
Smyrnian | Sep 23, 2012, 09:27 AM EDT
My compliments to Mr. Jones for his refreshingly honest and insightful observations. He will undoubtedly have ruffled some feathers in various quarters but he clearly will not lose any sleep over this.
WoundedKnee | Sep 23, 2012, 08:31 AM EDT
Very good assessment by Jones, concurs absolutely with what I have come across in Ireland. The Eurocentric attitudes and poses of the Irish ruling classes are particularly fatuous. One of the problems is that those politicians and top bureaucrats in charge in Ireland are those who didn't emigrate, and very often didn't travel. I doubt if one member of the Irish government speaks a foreign language, for example--they're oriented to Britain and to Brussels, where English is now a de facto lingua franca (excuse my Latin). I have to correct Jones in one respect, though. He describes Ireland as "a cohesive, homogenous, small country". Right on one out of three! Does he never go back to Ireland? If he did he'd see that the pathologically high rate of Mass Immigration, combined with simultanous emigration by the young Irish, has created a country which is most assuredly not cohesive and homogenous. Take a stroll thru downtown Dublin--you'll hear a score of different languages, all insulated from each other and from engagement with Ireland and its culture. I believe this lack of national and social solidarity and absence of community identification have played a significant role in the Irish debacle.