75 Comments

• solyeant | Jul 26, 2011, 02:41 PM EDT

  could be we are just missing the point from first base confession is neither a moral obligation nor a catholic tenet of faith It has been used for centuries to ;aintain coontrol over the ordinaqry guy in the street the constant access to confessions has reinforced the allegiance of these sinners to a penitant system where the penqnce fits the sin and because the penqnce and sin are equal the poor sod leaves the box haqving balanced the two and found that its a good place tobe and still the sin is extant With societal sins and assault the Church has assumed the role of the Judge and Jury and impose their code This cannot be acceptqable amongst a group of men who have neither the moral aTTRIBUTES OF THE JUDGE NOR THE GRAVITAS OF THE SOCIAL RESPONSE TO SUCH CRIME THE SECRECY OF CONFESSION is a myth and we have swallowed it hook line and sinker Now is the time to re-examine the allegiance to theact of repentance but please don`t confuse confession with the church and God`s teaching They never were symbiotic one with the other Thanks

• sirpeter | Jul 20, 2011, 09:08 PM EDT

  @eiriamach.To be honest I just made it up as I went along.I didn't know my comment was a relativist approach to ethics.I had to look it up lol.I have no doubt the temple police will descend with fiery wrath lol.I don't know.I think this law is all flim-flam to appease the masses.Implementing this law will be impossible.I think we know how the world works by now.The powerful are immune when it comes to the law.They hack off the odd powerful head at times to keep us happy but it changes nothing.They stand on the shoulders of the masses and the only time you get real change in anything is when the ordinary people give a collective shuffle to make them feel a little nervous.

• Searlit | Jul 20, 2011, 05:34 PM EDT

  "The criminal has the right to God's forgiveness, but not to escape from criminal law". Eiriamach, you describe an inescapable truth, like no one else. Sláinte!

• eiriamach | Jul 20, 2011, 03:38 PM EDT

  Aire! Sirpeter! Watch out, or the temple police will descend with fiery wrath and threat of fiery punishments upon you! Yes, they hang out here at IC, not just in the dioceses to keep tabs on whether the priests are keeping up traditional authority. You've written a kind of relativist approach to ethics, and you know they despise ethical relativism. (And actually, I agree with them that morality is not relative, but not on their idea of objective moral rules or their screwy idea of natural law.) It looks to me as though you are reacting against the heavy authority of Roman Catholic priests and bishops, who certainly assert church laws and doctrine in an authoritative tone. I think that this new state criminal law against protecting the confidential confession of a pedophile is little more than a symbolic gesture, but it's important because the government is finally asserting the primacy of state law over canon law or the laws of any particular religion. That's a good thing, especially if this is a just law. I think this law is both just and, given the recent history of sexual abuse by clergy, necessary. If the RC hierarchy had cooperated by turning over all records of sexual abuse allegations, instead of shredding and hiding the records and stonewalling, this law probably would not have passed.

• HorsesInMdstrm | Jul 20, 2011, 10:15 AM EDT

  @Snowdrop - Let's hypothesize here. Let's say I'm in some cult and believe that children should be exploited sexually, or even killed and eaten as Jonathan Swift proposed (YUK). But I'm in a religion because I say I am, so the USA has to refrain from infringing on my tenet, according to your logic. The attorneys you refer to are often called police by others. By the way, in your last sentence you have a typo. but I don't know whether you meant sanctity or insanity. Please clarify.

• sirpeter | Jul 20, 2011, 07:58 AM EDT

  @eiriamach.It's as simple as this.The whole point of confession is that it shields a law breaker or a morality breaker from these ever changing laws.BOTH law and morality are human creations and very susceptible to change.All human beings are born in a natural state of spritual and moral autonomy.Any wrongdoing for whatever reason,is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Morality and Law is simply a kind of make-believe,a complex set of rules and recommendations that represents nothing real and is a human creation.Society then imposes it's laws and morality and make-believe on us as soon as we are born AGAINST our natural spritual and moral autonomy.Laws are implemented and enforced on a person by physical punishment eventually and does not provide a safe sanctuary where a person can try and adjust back into societies EXCEPTABLE HUMAN creations.Confession with the help of God and an EXCEPTABLE HUMAN advisor can help a human being back into societies make-believe exceptable behavoir.Go!!God :))

• Snowdrop | Jul 20, 2011, 06:09 AM EDT

  This is one reason why the United States of America purposefully documented the right of separation of Church and state. To infronge on a Roman Catholic tenet is disgraceful, even if what was confessed is more disgraceful or illegal...as pedophilia is. This is the job of attorneys to apply their skills to drawing confessions from accused criminals. In the end, regretful sex offenders and gangsters will not resort to the solace and spirituality of confessing to a priest, but do so to their own personal God. How did all the mobsters in NYC and Chicago get buried in Catholic Cemeteries? Even in predominantly RC Ireland, the santity of religion must he adhered to.

• eiriamach | Jul 20, 2011, 03:12 AM EDT

  As both a practical matter and a moral one, no state can afford to protect a form of secrecy that shields criminals from prosecution under criminal law. The government is absolutely right to pass this law and thereby make it clear that they will enforce the law of the land even against canon law and bishops trying to protect church reputation. And priests have the right of conscience to refuse to obey this law. But when they refuse, the people and the state must hold them accountable for that refusal if possible. I'd like to know WHY a priest would not be ready to give up his career in the church and face excommunication rather than protecting a pedophile who will, very likely, continue to find more victims. WHY would a priest not be willing to sacrifice his own job to help bring justice to victims of pedophiles? How many laity have sacrificed their jobs or lost careers because they have been willing to come forward with information about criminal activities such as the Murdoch case? Like everyone else, a priest has a moral responsibility to help protect potential victims and to cooperate with law enforcement in the interests of justice. If the sacrament of reconciliation could "cure" pedophiles, then I'd agree that priests should keep information about such crimes secret, but it does not "cure" the criminal, so it should not protect him from justice. The criminal has the right to God's forgiveness, but not to escape from criminal law.

• barneyjo | Jul 19, 2011, 02:57 PM EDT

  @jacersagain - you're right, Irish Catholics will show their wrath to the Government if they implement this policy. However its only the shrinking minority who would share similar views to your own I think. The real wrath of Irish Catholics is falling where it rightly and justly should; on the heads of the misguided, insincere and shallow clerics who have been shown to have preached one thing to the faithfu, but practiced another entirely. By all means support the priests who uphold the seal of confession, but why do you have such a limited misssion in your life? Why not support the priests who despite all that has happened who continue to preach the true message of a loving God. I really think that errant Clerics who have forsaken that message now find themselves in the eye of a storm that is not going to end anytime soon. Be they Cardinals, Bishops or Priests, they are now feeling, and will continue to feel the the "wrath of the rain" until they finally come to accept and acknowledge what they have done. If God is truly with his church (the "faithful") then there is nothing that they can do, nowhere they can hide to avoid the will of God. You and I (and others) can debate the rights and wrongs of whatever; what really matters is that if God has decided to "call time" on part of his church on earth, then that is going to happen!! @sirpeter - more anon!!

• sirpeter | Jul 19, 2011, 02:40 PM EDT

  @HorsesInMdstrm.Glad you understand my sense of humour.It isn't always understood on IC.God says you don't need a conduit that he/she is always willing to listen when you call direct.But he understands that at this stage in our evolution not everyone has the mental capacity or self-assurance to reach out and go it alone.We are still holding eachothers hands for reassurance so to speak.This will not always be the case.At one stage in our evolution we were not self aware but now we have an intellectual self awareness,a form of higher consciousness.He told me to tell you in time all humans will do away with the conduit (meaning all those childish holding hands religions)and relate to God in a less fearful way and on an even more higher conscious level.God says like a baby we are taking our first few shakey steps but we are still very stupid because we keep knocking eachother over in our haste to get to him.;))

• jacersagain | Jul 19, 2011, 12:36 PM EDT

  I support the priests who swear to uphold the seal of Confession. The Irish Government, led by a meek Taoiseach intimidated by the Big Bully, atheist Ruarí Quinn (who is attacking Irish Catholic Religious Orders on his own accord) with Jewish Minister Alan Shatter supporting him, is crazy to think they can invade the privacy of the Catholic Confessional box. So much for separation of Church and State... now the Irish State wants to govern the Sacrament of Penance. Eh? Crazy! If I go to confession, I confess my sins, my transgressions, against God’s Ten Commandments, each of them beautifully encompassed and replaced by the New Covenant that God’s Son, Jesus Christ, made with us humans through His Two Commandments: To love God and to Love Our Neighbours. When I am in the Confessional, it is a spiritual matter about my sins between me as a human being and the Supreme God, through His Son, Jesus, under that New Covenant. If I am arrested by the police or if I go to the police and confess that I’ve broken the law of the land, then that is a civil or criminal matter. The way in which I practice my Catholic faith is guaranteed by the Irish Constitution; therefore, any infringement on that guarantee, such as the proposed law on forcing priests to break the seal of my spiritual confessions of sin, is unconstitutional and doomed to failure. On this matter, the Irish Government is going to face the wrath of, not just the priests of Ireland but that of Irish Catholics. A Big Head-on clash is coming. A sin is a spiritual matter; a crime is a civil matter. Church and State must be kept separate.

• HorsesInMdstrm | Jul 19, 2011, 10:21 AM EDT

  I believe that, in many parts of the US, medical and mental health professionals are required to report suspicions of child abuse. Why should an organization such as the church be permitted to set up their own rules, and claim this ridiculous privilege? Think where that could lead. @sirpeter - If the priest is the conduit to God for one confessing, why do we need the conduit? For the structure, for the counseling (Is the priest trained or licensed?), for the reassurance? Since you are the one with the direct line (I understand the humor), ask the entity at the other end what he/she/it/?? thinks.

• sirpeter | Jul 19, 2011, 07:53 AM EDT

  @barneyjo.Well I was lead to believe that there was mortal sin and venial sin.Murder was classed as a mortal sin and to die with a mortal sin on your soul then you went to hell.If you confessed to a priest before you died and was genunely sorry for the murder you were forgiven by God and received absolution and you went to heaven in a state of grace.I was told God is capable of forgiving even the worse murderer.As far as I know the Ten Commandments that were handed down from God to Moses are the mortal/major sins.Everything else is a venial sin.The church can use it's own perogative in respect of a unique set of circumstances.But it cannot change the Ten Commandments.Like the Hippocratic Oath with doctors it's first rule is "Do no harm" The same could be said of Priests.A person could truely believe that they have sinned/offended but it could be just a figment of their imagination or some mental problem like people confessing to murders that they never did just for attention.If the Priest broke the seal of confession and told the authorities he would be doing harm at the very least to that persons reputation.Also because the Priest cannot be 100% sure weather a person is telling the truth or not in confessional.He runs the risk of committing a mortal sin himself "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour"By that I mean the priest himself could be an abuse victim and like all abuse victims their judgement is coloured.

• sirpeter | Jul 19, 2011, 07:53 AM EDT

  (Con’t)If he reported an innocent person by mistake.Then at the very least the priest would have a struggle with his conscience .Only God doesn't make mistakes so I guess Priests don't want to take that chance.Barneyjo I don't even go to Mass or listen to Priests or read up on this stuff.But I think I'm putting up a good argument in a simple way without confusing people or getting to complex.It may make sense to some people what I write and that's great or it may make no sense and that's fine as well.Since I'm in Gods field of expertise I did ask him/her for help.Now that WE are finished with this comment.He told me also to be nice to barneyjo that she has something special in her heart and is of great value to this site of sinners.I felt he was pointing the finger at me lol ;)

• barneyjo | Jul 19, 2011, 03:46 AM EDT

  @sirpeter - Ah, but it surely is the case that there are certain types of sin such as murder for which absolution is unobtainable? Equally, is it not also documented that in 19th and 20th century Ireland, and in certain Diocese only the production of Poteen was to be regarded as such a major sin to the degree that only a local bishop as self-appointed confessor could grant absolution to those who confessed to making or drinking "the stuff!! This second instance clearly shows the church acting on its own perogative in respect of a unique set of circumstance rather than leaving it entirely in the hands of God. If such a precedent could be set in some instances, but not in others, then it seems to me that the sacradoetal seal is not necessarily held to apply in all instances.

• patrickomalley | Jul 19, 2011, 01:09 AM EDT

  When they are threatened with possible prison, they will give up their vows pretty quickly. They gave up their vows to rape young boys, they gave up their vows to lie about it, and most of the ones that were proven guilty lied all the way to jail because they thought they knew that giving up their vows was preferable to going to jail.

• sirpeter | Jul 18, 2011, 09:10 PM EDT

  @barneyjo.I always thought confession was a confession to God using a priest as a conduit so to speak.Absolution is given for past sins at that time.The slate is wiped clean and their is no conditions other then he/she try not to sin again.A priest believes God is the higher authority,absolution is given by God through the priest.At that point the sinner/ofender is in a state of grace and has no sin in the eyes of God.Making a mends for a sin is up to the sinner.If in ALL consience he can't bring himself/herself to be punished by the authorities.He is still in a state of grace and will only be judged on future sins in the eyes of God.God will decide not the Priest.The Priest has no authority to inform on the offender for past deeds because in the eyes of an ALL FORGIVEING God unlike us humans who are incapable of forgiving fully.In Gods eyes once an offender is sorry for his past deeds they don't exist.A priest cannot leak any information when it comes to a man's/women's personal conversation with God.That's my argument anyway.Sorry I don't have any bible quotes like some people here.I don't need the bible.I have a direct line to God himself he told me write this ;))

• Collette2 | Jul 18, 2011, 05:39 PM EDT

  keneconnor, I don't think we are speaking about the same institution. It wasn't the church per se who stood across the path of Hitler, it was inividuals acting on their own conscience as decent human beings. You've been reading the wrong historical gaff, to whitewash the guilt of the establishment.

• barneyjo | Jul 18, 2011, 05:13 PM EDT

  Hold on James - this may not be the case in all instances, referring to your claim of a massive infringement on religious freedom. I seem to recall that there is at least a suggestion that for the sacredotal seal of confession to apply, the penitent must make an abject, sincere and full confession. In the case where an abuser confessed his actions in the confessional to a priest who would grant absolution on the condition that the abuser should report his activities to the statutory authority. If the abuser did not meet that condition of absolution, then it has been suggested by others that the sacredotal seal would not apply and that the confessor would be free to inform on the activities of the abuser. If that is so ( and I dont claim that it is) then surely there is a protocol which could be applied!!

• jamesphieffer | Jul 18, 2011, 03:13 PM EDT

  PolinDeB - Whilst there is much debate as to the relationship between the Vatican and Berlin during the Nazi era, consider the actions of Catholic clergy and laity against the Nazi's and to aid the Jews of Europe has been solidly documented (with, of course, those exceptions which are used as a stick to beat the Church to this day). Then consider the welcome given to Nazi's by Ireland during and especially after WWII - when there was no way NOT to know of the evils perpetrated by these animals. Returning to the issue at hand, while the atrocity of paedophilia perpetrated by any individual or group is odious and must be ended now, I cannot see how this massive infringement of religious freedom will prevent even one more case, or bring a single perpetrator to justice. Rather, it marks a dangerous infringement on civil rights in Ireland. One question - why wasn't this suggested to combat IRA terrorism in the last century?

• Lucia826 | Jul 18, 2011, 01:39 PM EDT

  To learn what the gov't. proposes to the Catholic Church is so very sad. I guess even psychiatrists and all other medical professionals and all lawyers have to report ALL the lunacy they encounter, too(?) Cannot the priest make "absolution" contingent upon a person confessing to authorities their crimes? I would certainly be the first one to sign up to drive ANY abuser to jail, regardless of his/her vocation...but don't tamper with confession unless you are prepared to break ALL areas of privacy.

• turzovka | Jul 18, 2011, 01:09 PM EDT

  At some point the representative body of a sovereign state is going to have to address the notion that God and the afterlife are very real entities to a majority of their citizens. And if they (the state) think that their "needs" are of greater value and should always trump that which God puts forth as valuable, then there is bound to be a major breakdown in this society. Most Christians will go to their grave (as during Roman times) than submit to a secular world that cares not about He who created them.

• sirpeter | Jul 18, 2011, 12:00 PM EDT

  @PolinDeB.I might appear insane to a person who has experienced sexual abuse by a priest.Most people who suffer abuse of any description would think I'm insane on any emotional topic depending on THEIR abusive experience. But then how SANE are they after been abused.I'm happy to say I have never been abused in any way,shape or form.Nor am I a priest.The best part about not been abused in any way,shape or form is a person doesn't let emotions get in the way of been rational.Let me educate you a little bit.Most abusers have themselves been abused.FACT.I,m talking about all types of abuse.If you feel sorry for kids who are abuse victims and who now are emotionaly messed up in the head.Will you feel sorry for those same abused messed up kids who grow into abusive messed up adults?By the way been sexually abused by a parent has got to be 10 times worse then been abused by a priest.Been sexually abused by a parent and hit with a hammer is 10 times worse again.As I said any church authority who moves on a pedophile without reporting him should be held accountable.

• norinalundy | Jul 18, 2011, 10:13 AM EDT

  @advocate - Jaysus! Stop with the Yahweh - that is all I heard my entire life, and I am sick of it - the issue was not gay and lesbian marriage - do you have a reading comp problem? If a priest is guilty of abusing a child, then the priest to whom they confess should face them openly, chastise them, don't coddle them, regardless of the secrecy of confession, not necessarily report them (seems to me that this is objectionable to so many idiots), at least let them know that they are being watched by one person! Children are at stake, lives are at stake, if not only now, but the future, I know! It can ruin everything. Look at what happened in Brooklyn in the Jewish-isolated community of Borough park this past week. Was this guy protected by the Shomrim who could have known he was a child abuser/molester? They are not allowed to tell the police!

• PolinDeB | Jul 18, 2011, 09:56 AM EDT

  @Wingeire1 I know.. all these about sacredness of confession obviously didn't pay attention in religion class.. if your not genuinely sorry the oath doesn't count. If your genuinely sorry you will turn yourself into police and go from there...

• PolinDeB | Jul 18, 2011, 09:53 AM EDT

  @keneconnor Emm.. the Vatican actually supported Hitler or at least ignored his faults.. they've apologised for that one already... .. sorry... but ... yeah.. not great reputation from the Nazi era..

• PolinDeB | Jul 18, 2011, 09:51 AM EDT

  @sirpeter Are you insane? Do you know what Sexual Abuse does to a child? -"equally as destructive mentally as what a pedophile" - or are you a catholic priest because that is sure a hell the mentality that let this happen for so long.

• Portia777 | Jul 18, 2011, 09:40 AM EDT

  Well, who better than the Irish to set a precedent.

• sirpeter | Jul 18, 2011, 08:00 AM EDT

  The seal of confession is of benefit to the quality of society as a whole.Nothing is to be gained by society if a person with problems feels they can't talk or get advice in strict confidence.Child abuse comes in many many forms and plenty equally as destructive mentally as what a pedophile does.Changes need to be made in all churches.If a pedophile is abusing his kids is he going to risk losing his kids if he could be reported.I think not.Still any church authority who moves on a pedophile without reporting him should be held accountable.

• keneconnor | Jul 18, 2011, 08:00 AM EDT

  It is sickening to me that we Irish have lost our Catholic faith to chase money just like everyone else in Europe. Now hilariously we have even lost the money that we left God to pursue. Now angry at the church we are set about to persecute her, Unreal. “[As a] lover of freedom, when the (Nazi) revolution came, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but no, the universities were immediately silenced. "Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks... "Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration for it because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly” -- Albert Einstein, cited by Wilhelm Niemoller in Kampi und Zeugnis der bekennenden Kirche — Struggle and Testimony of the Confessing Church, p. 526. and Cochrane.

• Collette2 | Jul 18, 2011, 04:46 AM EDT

  David Quinn, if you ever read this, it may be unprecedented but what a precedent, and for Ireland to be the one making it. This will sit up there in the history books with The Great Famine, Easter Rising, War of Indepedence and all other historical land marks of this strong and resiliant country. Let's hope other countries follow suite.

• bogsidebunny | Jul 18, 2011, 04:41 AM EDT

  Priests do not fall into the same catagory as doctors, lawyers and psychologists woodman. Priests represent a particular religious belief and are not subject to the same sanctity laws. Priests who don't report murders, rapists and other criminals are simply abetting the crime. Lock 'em up and throw away the keys. Even better, when Shariah law becomes the law of the land (when, not if) in Ireland then the dog-collard lads will see their sanctimonious havens collapse!

• seanomelbourne | Jul 18, 2011, 03:16 AM EDT

  If woodman wants to name Fascists he should start with Rome and the passports issued to war criminals with the help of "opus Dei".

• Woodman | Jul 18, 2011, 01:36 AM EDT

  So what's next for the Irish fascists and swindlers in the Irish govt? Maybe the attorney client relationship? Make attorneys tell the state what their client told them in privacy How about the doctor patient relationship. Or what a patient said to a psychologist. Maybe stick their big noses into that too. You know it's all to protect the kiddies even thought they wouldn't act on reports of abuse for 50 years now they need to know what is said in confession.

• OBPiper | Jul 17, 2011, 11:51 PM EDT

  "If the law says that sir, then the law's an ass, sir." Mr. Bumble. I agree that the confessional should trump the law and that the law should be enlightened enough to allow it to do so. I also implore the church to purge itself of the pathological celibacy thrust upon it by the Romans, which surely relieve pressure on the confessional.

• CitizenWhy | Jul 17, 2011, 11:08 PM EDT

  McNamara3's point is well documented. When told by the priest in charge of "reforming" child molester priest in the USA (whose original mission was rehabilitating priests with drinking problems) that the sex offenders could not be rehabilitated and needed to be defrocked, the bishops of the church removed him from being in charge and put in a compliant layman. Then they consistently covered up the repeat offenses of the sex offender priests. Many years ago in my own parish school in NYC there was minor incidence of molestation done by a popular teaching brother. The pastor handled the situation well: he immediately removed the man, forced the order to expel him, and announced from the pulpit that the offender had been removed from any position in the church and was expelled from his order and the family advised to lodge a complaint with the police. The pastor explained that people with this problem needed our prayers and charity but that they could not be reformed and must be removed from any contact with children. He seemed to know that this problem is not reformable, probably relying on advice from the St. Luke Center. Of course we knew that he was strong bishop material (by education and abilities) but that his stands on this and other matters blackballed him from promotion.

• CitizenWhy | Jul 17, 2011, 10:54 PM EDT

  This law is a mistake, and will lead to ludicrous situations. The government should break off relations with the Vatican until it apologizes and issues a mandate that ... 1. No pedophile can get absolution unless he turns himself into the police. ... 2. Any pedophile going to Confession will not be under the seal of confession unless he turns himself into the police. ... 3. At the start of every confession, these restrictions on pedophiles should be recited in as brief a form as possible. ... Under the proposed law about confession, can the priest arrested for keeping the seal of confession sue under that weird blasphemy law?

• seanomelbourne | Jul 17, 2011, 09:00 PM EDT

  The confessional is an effront to civil law and only serves lawbreakers. all those priests upholding canon law return to Rome.All those Muslims who wish to uphold sharia law return to Mecca and all you Jews who practise the Misirah return to Palestine.

• barneyjo | Jul 17, 2011, 08:59 PM EDT

  @Angelprecious - I merely make two points; 1)that priest abusers (a minority) have used the confessional for their own nefarious purposes (grooming child victims for example). 2) I have not seen a lot of discussion on the sacredotal privilege as it applies to those same abusers who in turn have granted absolution to other abusers and the validity of their ministry to do so!!

• pilib04 | Jul 17, 2011, 08:35 PM EDT

  I have no problem with priests using the seal of confession to refuse to testify as long as they understand that they are going to prison if they refuse to testify. While we are at it, put all the pedophile priests in jail along with the bishops who are protecting them! I am so sick and tired of hearing about these bishops who think its ok to protect child abusers. To say nothing about the pedophile bishops!!!

• Wingeire1 | Jul 17, 2011, 08:17 PM EDT

  Good post, PolinDeB...I did not know that about confession.

• McNamara31 | Jul 17, 2011, 08:15 PM EDT

  oneillhill... To date, the Vatican has paid close to 3 billion dollars in abuse claims in the US alone. Money that should have supported the parishes, schools, hospitals and missions that were essentially built by the legacy of devout Irish in America. If you take the time to read the grand jury reports and the writings from St Luke's Institute and of Fr. Gerald Fitzgerald, the founder of The Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete (who handled abusing priests for the Vatican) you will clearly see the church knew of the "problem" early on, and was advised time and time again, that these child predators did not respond to therapy. Fr. Fitzgerald repeatedly reported to the Vatican these priests should be defrocked. When you say, "Does that seem fair to an innocent priest?" Vatican decisions made the vast amount of good priests have to work alongside predators. Can you imagine what that was like for them? And for your quote that some of the victim's were "just looking for a big payday" is quite sickening. This weekend maybe you will read the letters (on file @Boston Globe) from the good Catholic mothers of Boston who begged their bishops to help their abused children. Letters from mothers who never thought in their wildest dreams that their children would not be safe with a "Man of God." I applaud Prime Minister Enda Kenny’s stance and believe it is the right and moral position to take.

• PolinDeB | Jul 17, 2011, 07:53 PM EDT

  Luckily for the priests, the Sacredotal privilege of confession was a much discussed topic in my religion class as a young girl. Usually in the guise of someone confessing that they had poisoned the wine that the Priest was going to drink at mass. Basically, the theory goes that the penitent's secrets are only obliged to be kept if they make a good confession. Therefore in future, the Priests must inform any child abuser that they must turn themselves into the police. If they don't, then the penitent will be deemed to have made a insincere or bad confession and the priest is within his rights to disclose this matter to the police. So if they can protect themselves surely protecting children is no drama. I am sure Pope Benedict in his wisdom will ensure that this is clear to the Priests of Ireland. Which begs the question, if he doesn't does that mean he too will go to Jail? And if he isn't coming to Ireland next year is this why?

• AngelPrecious | Jul 17, 2011, 07:41 PM EDT

  barney, hmmm, staffed by abusers. Even someone with a half of brain knows that the great majority of priests are good, holy men of God. Your bias is showing in a very unattractive manner! Institutional within the Church??? Hardly!

• seanomelbourne | Jul 17, 2011, 07:34 PM EDT

  The confessional is canon law,sharia is religious law and thr Jewish "misirah" which forbids jews from naming other jews who break civil law, none of them have a place in our free society. The above religious practices only help criminals and give exceptional powers to the leaders of all the above religions.Now we might ponder on why a complete seperation of church and state is neccessary.

• barneyjo | Jul 17, 2011, 07:21 PM EDT

  @anybody - I wonder why, but it seems to have escaped the attention of most posters here, that we now know that confessionals across the catholic world have been staffed by Priest Abusers, and there is every likelihood that they still are. What of the sacramental seal where priest abusers have themselves granted absolution to other abusers, whether clerical or laity. By definition that renders clerical abuse both systemic and intsitutional within the Catholic Church surely?

• Springfield9 | Jul 17, 2011, 05:58 PM EDT

  A law that violates the Confession - beyond ridiculous. I'm a fan of branding pedophiles but the Confessional is off limits.

• oneillhill | Jul 17, 2011, 04:35 PM EDT

  McNamara31...Priests are part of society and have been and will be punished by the system of laws. True in the U.S. most of the accused were from the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, many already died, but brought to the attention of the public through the media in the 2000s. The church at the time in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, didn't understand that predators stay that way and tried to help them with counseling, etc, and moving them to different parishes. It was wrong to do that. They protected men who should not have been protected. The church has tried to do everything possible to not let that ever happen again in the U.S. Now when a priest is accused they are released from active ministry immediately, presumed to be guilty even before trial. Does that seem fair to an innocent priest? Some who say they were abused weren't abused and are just looking for a big payday, sad to say. I was abused as a child by a family member and I know what a burden it is to carry the secret and the effects of it. Every person should be aware of odd behavior of a child and, or too much attention from an adult - fondling, giving them gifts and camping trips, etc. We citizens should be more educated and keep our children safe. Lots of these perverts join Boys and Girls Clubs. scouting and coach athletics, etc. It happens every day. Priests are not the main source of sexual abuse. Leave confession alone. Make laws that protect the children from media sexual abuse. Educate parents how to watch out for a predator. Bring back sanctity and morals to all countries.

• RichardP | Jul 17, 2011, 03:56 PM EDT

  FatherVol if, as you claim, the "...VAST majority (of priests) are good, holy men as scandalized as the general public by the sins of their confrers..." then why have they done nothing about those evil,sick, depraved confreres except hide them from the civil authorities? How come there are 100's (probably 1000's worldwide) in the positions of canonical authority who know or knew nothing, who do or did nothing about these evil cancers? They are surely an abomination to society and should be also to the Church. There is none so blind as those who will not see. Why do the preachers of fire and brimstone become 'turn the other cheek' Christians when in comes to the sins of their confrere's? It reminds me of the Nazi's after WWII who knew nothing of the atrocities committed under Hitler, who were only following orders, who did nothing illegal in the eyes of the state. The arrogance of the Vatican to tell its representatives to ignore the laws of Ireland is staggering. That would have worked under de Valera and McQuaid (it DID work under them) so thank GOD we have a government in ireland now that is prepared to do far more to protect children from the abusers in a so-called Christian organization than the Church itself has ever done. How does a Church, masquerading as a Christian organization, protect, nurture, foster and defend members who have committed some of the most heinous breaches of its own laws? It smells of 'cover-up for the higher-up', because there will soon be Archbishops and Cardinals exposed for their evils, of that I have no doubt. If I as a Catholic commit such perverted evil acts against the Church's law I will be excommunicated so if the laws of the Vatican are more important to priests than the laws of the country in which they live then deport them to the Vatican.

• CER1940 | Jul 17, 2011, 03:45 PM EDT

  If the priests do not wish to follow the law of the land, they should go to a land where the laws , or lack thereof, match their beliefs... try the vatican, it seems soft on pedophiles. They are currently harboring the American criminal Law.

• McNamara31 | Jul 17, 2011, 03:19 PM EDT

  oneillhill... Unlike society, where a child abuser is found and arrested, the Vatican has “uniformly", concealed this criminal activity worlwide. You ask “What has happened to Ireland?” Answer, Ireland has had enough. Ireland see’s a crime as it is and the Vatican’s part in it. Ireland is doing the job that should have been done in Boston in 2002. Ireland is sending a message to the world; our children are precious gifts from God and we will protect them from all, including the Vatican’s long history of neglect.

• eiriamach | Jul 17, 2011, 03:05 PM EDT

  Even if this law were only a symbolic gesture, it sends a clear and necessary message: everyone, no exceptions or exemptions, has an over-riding moral responsibility to help protect children from sexually abusive adults, whoever the abusers are. Whenever the seal of confession works to obstruct criminal justice, whenever the seal of confession works to make children vulnerable to abuse, criminal law must take precedence. Any priest who cannot put the safety of children above his own career track should be looking for a different line of work anyway-- and maybe he should do a little prison time first. It's the right message for the state to send. If the priests had responded to the clerical abuse problem as clearly as they are responding to this proposed law, the law would not have been necessary.

• oneillhill | Jul 17, 2011, 02:29 PM EDT

  Lets not forget that in in all organizations church and otherwise, and in households: uncles, cousins, brothers, fathers, mothers, extended family members and friends have been pedophiles or sexual perverts. Many people who have been abused have kept silent esp. in families about it. It goes way deeper than priests who fall. Bring back morality and decency and this won't happen.

• oneillhill | Jul 17, 2011, 02:23 PM EDT

  I am surprised the once mostly Catholic Ireland has decided to make a law against the secrecy of confession. This seems to be Dictator style tactics. What has happened to Ireland? A penitent knows that they can confess without their sins being revealed. This problem of sexual abuse is greater than just the few priests that have sinned, the majority of priests are good and caring. It is a problem with the society we live in. Daily we are inundated with all perverted types of sexual behavior in the movies, TV, magazines etc. When someone acts out these behaviors everyone is surprised. Human beings fail and give in to sin. We don't help them by projecting immorality on a daily basis. We, in the world, need to get back to the Laws of God - the Ten Commandments - and bible teaching to bring Moral Order to the world. It is this anything goes attitude about all things sexual that is causing this problem. Laws are needed to bring back decency not to target priests and confessions.

• Searlit | Jul 17, 2011, 01:56 PM EDT

  Jesus did not put himself above the law.

• Advocate | Jul 17, 2011, 01:28 PM EDT

  No man-made 'law' (sic) can come above Yahweh's law. Scriotures require repentance before Yahweh/God, not a priest/man!!! This includes man-made law(s) regarding marriage for gay & lesbian. Since 'marriage' is an institution formed by Yahweh/God, these people can NEVER be married, no matter what some man-made law declares! Call their 'relationship' what you will, but married, NEVER! I hope 'confession' to a priest includes God in the picture since it is He alone who hav the power to forgive, Etc., etc.

• helenmcgonigle | Jul 17, 2011, 01:14 PM EDT

  When has anyone ever heard of a Catholic priest persuading a child molestor to report their own crimes. They pentitent can always waive their own confidentiality and I don't ever hear about a Catholic priest encouraging the criminal to come clean by turning themselves into the law. Its all about the broad sweeping absolution and using the confessional aka gossip box for their own ends. Case in point, my childhood parish priest the notorious Fr. Brendan Smyth did that very thing. He used the information gained in the gossip box as a weapon to sexually abuse children, like me, my sister and hundreds of others. Why in the Lord's name are should any confessional seal be maintained in light of the crimes committed by these abusers and covered up by the Vatican? We don't need to gossip box or middle man in the robe to confess our sins to God.

• FatherVol | Jul 17, 2011, 01:08 PM EDT

  Good for the priests. A priest-confessor cannot even break the seal of confession in self-defense or to save his own life. This law is a knee-jerk reaction in an effort to paint every priest with the same stroke, one that says "guilty because you are a priest." Yes, there are guilty priests, but the VAST majority are good, holy men as scandalized as the general public by the sins of their confrers. But, they still cannot violate the sacred seal of the confessional even if crime is involved or their own innocence is at stake. (Rent Hitchcock's "I Confess" with Montgomery Clift for a take on the solemnity with which we priests take the promise not to violate the sacramental seal of Confession.)

• aoibhinn | Jul 17, 2011, 12:53 PM EDT

  "Irish priests say they will not reveal confession secrets" Good! They shouldn't.

• thomasdriscoll | Jul 17, 2011, 12:41 PM EDT

  On another level perhaps Ireland can use this legislation to send a message to the Vatican and the bishops of the world that the protection of children is appealing to a higher law - higher than canon law. And that Ireland will do its best even if the customs of the Catholic Church are in the way. Also, expel then nuncio and close the embassy to Vatican City. Actions will speaker louder than words.

• gordongoblin | Jul 17, 2011, 12:23 PM EDT

  It is clear that priests hold the law in contempt. Perhaps we all deserve the same right to ignore laws on a whim? Of course not. We all have the right to break the law, but we are expected to face the consequences. These priests need to learn that they are not a differen class of being. They are subject to the law. My guess is that their princple objection is because the child rapists priests have all been to confession and forgiven, so the church feels like no earthly power has a right to judge these forgiven rapists. Maybe that's why they care so little about sorting the situation out, since the sins are already forgiven.

• barneyjo | Jul 17, 2011, 11:41 AM EDT

  If the law as is presently envisaged comes into force in Ireland, every priest will have to decide for themselves what the right course of action is in the event that they hear the confession of any child abuser, be that layman or cleric. If the church takes an absolute position on the continuation of the sacramental seal of confession, in doing so, they must acknowledge the right of the laity to disassociate themselves with this rite uniquely by their non-particiipation, but allow them to retain their devotion to all other rites, even if they are directly dependent on the rite of penance. Failing that, they will have to accept the sad fact that many will vote with their feet and not participate in any of the sacraments on an any way regular basis. You cant have it both ways!!

• Colliegirl | Jul 17, 2011, 11:33 AM EDT

  OMG norinalundy, do you really think that priests don't already do this when someone confesses a serious crime? They can't FORCE the penitent to do what they say.

• PhlutiePhan | Jul 17, 2011, 11:28 AM EDT

  This is just one more move to create an Irish socialist republic. There is no doubt that a number of priests connected to the Provisionals passed on information from the confessional which led to the killing of collaborators. Tito in Yugoslavia was a Croatian Catholic. Religion is in the way. It is the "opiate of the people". Radical women in the American presidential administration in key positions are Catholic. He also is a socialist. Religon in the eyes of world wide socialism is a divisive factor which must be put in check. Just ask Malachi Brendan Martin.

• norinalundy | Jul 17, 2011, 11:18 AM EDT

  Give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar and to God, that which belongs to God...Let these Priests confess, if they feel that they must, but instead of Hail Marys, etc., they should be told to go to the police, give themselves up, and go to/counseling or jail whatever fits the bill. Children are suffering into adulthood, marriages are suffering, second generations of children are bewildered! This way, the priests in the confessionals do not feel that they have broken their vows, and the offenders are doing what they must to take care of their transgressions. As of now, the Catholic Church is nothing more than a mockery of a religion in the eyes of the rest of the world, but more importantly, in the eyes of their own parishoners.

• Colliegirl | Jul 17, 2011, 11:17 AM EDT

  Surely the government of Ireland isn't stupid enough to believe that this inane law could actually protect children. Well, maybe it is. Being American I've had experience of stupid government. Anything allegedly heard in the confessional would have no more legal standing than hearsay or gossip. This is just a slap at the Catholic church, an insult in the form of an unenforceable law. And it implies that all or most Catholic priests give tacit approval to the sins of those involved in this scandal. The truth is that the faithful priests are appalled and grieved at the actions of their brothers and the harm they have done to the young people involved. The statement that confession was a scam thought up by a patriarchal religion in order to make money is a far cry from Jesus' command to the apostles to forgive sins. Is it only the Irish that turned it into a money making scam? And sin wouldn't happen under a matriarchal religion? Absurd!

• blessusnsaveus | Jul 17, 2011, 11:16 AM EDT

  Bishop McAreavey of Dromore said it best when he said it was "unreal to suggest that the seal of confession has prevented the reporting of the abuse of children." Too true, it's not Confession that has prevented abuse reporting it's the Vatican telling the bishops they don't have to follow their own guidelines.

• Bocktherobber | Jul 17, 2011, 10:47 AM EDT

  Wrong, Father Madden. If you're breaking the law then you have to find a way to address that. Grown-ups call this "taking responsibility", an experience unfamiliar to may Irish clergy.

• noinferiorman | Jul 17, 2011, 10:31 AM EDT

  No religion or sect should be above the natural laws of the land. If this law is passed, then it must be extended to partners in a couple/married, to doctors and law practitioners. How many of the public want that? How many hardened child abusers are going to tell the truth to an "unsafe"person. that includes any crime to that matter. In addition as a victim my self, The final responsibility does eventuall fall on us to expose these people and to in this case, make a full police statement and steer clear of religious rules and conviction. It is only in this way that the straws build up to that final one that breaks the camels back.

• Portia777 | Jul 17, 2011, 10:26 AM EDT

  The minister also needs to know that family court judges, solicitors ets are being taught that rape of children is mere assault and that many Irish protective parents are being ADVISED BY SOLICITORS NOT TO MENTION CHILD RAPE OR ABUSE TO COURT JUDGES BECAUSE THEY ARE SICK TO FU**ING DEATH OF IT. I heard this first from my own solicitor in 1995 and again last week. If you dare mention abuse of your children you will loose custody. So, the minister needs to have all in child protection DEPROGRAMMED.

• Portia777 | Jul 17, 2011, 10:22 AM EDT

  Why do criminals believe that going to "confess" their sins to a man in a dress brings forgiveness? Blair converted for the sole purpose of believing all his war crimes are forgiven. Only the victims of rape, crime can forgive the rapist, abuser, murderer. So, let us make it simple, remove the midle man in the dress totally. He is no more closer to the invisible god in the sky than anyone else. Let us face it. Confession was a scam thought up by the patriarchal religion in order to make money. Under OUR Laws of old a priest, bishop etc has to pay more in eiric than any other member of society because of his rank.

• AoifeNicSeáin | Jul 17, 2011, 10:10 AM EDT

  As not too few major systematic offenders are priests themselves I can't see any use in this proposed law. Won't do any harm either, no reason to believe there are more confessing pedophiles finding help to change than there are confirmed in their behaviour by a priest having pedophile tendencies himself. After all those crimes have surfaced the one and only logical reaction should be to X-rate the church and leave them as consenting adults playing their BDSM among themselves. Keep the childer out of them reach, far more effective than trying to mess with them own internal rules.

• colkelley | Jul 17, 2011, 10:08 AM EDT

  Priests should not be above the law - but since most of the pedophiles the Catholic Church has/is protecting are priests themselves I am not sure how effective it will be. What needs to happen is that every priest, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, etc., who can be found to have in any way protected, sheltered, or offered any protection to any other member of the Church hierarchy suspected of child abuse should be prosecuted for obstructing an investigation and - if the accused is found guilty - prosecuted as an accessory after the fact to child abuse and/or molestation. Priests and other Church officers who protect the Church and each other at the cost of the children they SHOULD be protecting deserve prosecution to the fullest extent of the law for every possible charge that can be filed against them. That includes Cardinals and even the Pope himself, if the trail leads there. Neither the Church nor any member of the hierarchy should be exempt from the law.

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 17, 2011, 09:51 AM EDT

  What are the priests supposed to do? Jump out of the confessional and grab the penitent and hold him (her?) till the police arrive? And will they record the confession? Otherwise it's the priest's word against the penitent's. Report him afterwards? How--any confessions I've gone to have been in half-light or even near darkness. The priest is not supposed to be able to recognize you. Will there be a Miranda Reading for penitents--"Anything you say in the Confession may be used in evidence against you"? It's all just the kind of imbecility that today's Irish get up to all the time. As usual and one more time, the Irish are doing something stupid without thinking it thru. That's been their M.O for years.

• AngelPrecious | Jul 17, 2011, 09:44 AM EDT

  The law is ridiculous and cannot, in good conscience, be followed by Catholic priests. They will be excommunicated if the break the sacred seal. I think Bishop McAreavey of Dromore said it best when he said it was "unreal to suggest that the seal of confession has prevented the reporting of the abuse of children." The priests would not necessarily hear it in Confession first, sheesh!