Irish priests say they will not reveal confession secrets

could be we are just missing the point from first base confession is neither a moral obligation nor a catholic tenet of faith It has been used for centuries to ;aintain coontrol over the ordinaqry guy in the street the constant access to confessions has reinforced the allegiance of these sinners to a penitant system where the penqnce fits the sin and because the penqnce and sin are equal the poor sod leaves the box haqving balanced the two and found that its a good place tobe and still the sin is extant With societal sins and assault the Church has assumed the role of the Judge and Jury and impose their code This cannot be acceptqable amongst a group of men who have neither the moral aTTRIBUTES OF THE JUDGE NOR THE GRAVITAS OF THE SOCIAL RESPONSE TO SUCH CRIME THE SECRECY OF CONFESSION is a myth and we have swallowed it hook line and sinker Now is the time to re-examine the allegiance to theact of repentance but please don`t confuse confession with the church and God`s teaching They never were symbiotic one with the other Thanks

@eiriamach.To be honest I just made it up as I went along.I didn't know my comment was a relativist approach to ethics.I had to look it up lol.I have no doubt the temple police will descend with fiery wrath lol.I don't know.I think this law is all flim-flam to appease the masses.Implementing this law will be impossible.I think we know how the world works by now.The powerful are immune when it comes to the law.They hack off the odd powerful head at times to keep us happy but it changes nothing.They stand on the shoulders of the masses and the only time you get real change in anything is when the ordinary people give a collective shuffle to make them feel a little nervous.

"The criminal has the right to God's forgiveness, but not to escape from criminal law". Eiriamach, you describe an inescapable truth, like no one else. Sláinte!

Aire! Sirpeter! Watch out, or the temple police will descend with fiery wrath and threat of fiery punishments upon you! Yes, they hang out here at IC, not just in the dioceses to keep tabs on whether the priests are keeping up traditional authority. You've written a kind of relativist approach to ethics, and you know they despise ethical relativism. (And actually, I agree with them that morality is not relative, but not on their idea of objective moral rules or their screwy idea of natural law.) It looks to me as though you are reacting against the heavy authority of Roman Catholic priests and bishops, who certainly assert church laws and doctrine in an authoritative tone. I think that this new state criminal law against protecting the confidential confession of a pedophile is little more than a symbolic gesture, but it's important because the government is finally asserting the primacy of state law over canon law or the laws of any particular religion. That's a good thing, especially if this is a just law. I think this law is both just and, given the recent history of sexual abuse by clergy, necessary. If the RC hierarchy had cooperated by turning over all records of sexual abuse allegations, instead of shredding and hiding the records and stonewalling, this law probably would not have passed.

@Snowdrop - Let's hypothesize here. Let's say I'm in some cult and believe that children should be exploited sexually, or even killed and eaten as Jonathan Swift proposed (YUK). But I'm in a religion because I say I am, so the USA has to refrain from infringing on my tenet, according to your logic. The attorneys you refer to are often called police by others. By the way, in your last sentence you have a typo. but I don't know whether you meant sanctity or insanity. Please clarify.

@eiriamach.It's as simple as this.The whole point of confession is that it shields a law breaker or a morality breaker from these ever changing laws.BOTH law and morality are human creations and very susceptible to change.All human beings are born in a natural state of spritual and moral autonomy.Any wrongdoing for whatever reason,is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Morality and Law is simply a kind of make-believe,a complex set of rules and recommendations that represents nothing real and is a human creation.Society then imposes it's laws and morality and make-believe on us as soon as we are born AGAINST our natural spritual and moral autonomy.Laws are implemented and enforced on a person by physical punishment eventually and does not provide a safe sanctuary where a person can try and adjust back into societies EXCEPTABLE HUMAN creations.Confession with the help of God and an EXCEPTABLE HUMAN advisor can help a human being back into societies make-believe exceptable behavoir.Go!!God :))

This is one reason why the United States of America purposefully documented the right of separation of Church and state. To infronge on a Roman Catholic tenet is disgraceful, even if what was confessed is more disgraceful or illegal...as pedophilia is. This is the job of attorneys to apply their skills to drawing confessions from accused criminals. In the end, regretful sex offenders and gangsters will not resort to the solace and spirituality of confessing to a priest, but do so to their own personal God. How did all the mobsters in NYC and Chicago get buried in Catholic Cemeteries? Even in predominantly RC Ireland, the santity of religion must he adhered to.

As both a practical matter and a moral one, no state can afford to protect a form of secrecy that shields criminals from prosecution under criminal law. The government is absolutely right to pass this law and thereby make it clear that they will enforce the law of the land even against canon law and bishops trying to protect church reputation. And priests have the right of conscience to refuse to obey this law. But when they refuse, the people and the state must hold them accountable for that refusal if possible. I'd like to know WHY a priest would not be ready to give up his career in the church and face excommunication rather than protecting a pedophile who will, very likely, continue to find more victims. WHY would a priest not be willing to sacrifice his own job to help bring justice to victims of pedophiles? How many laity have sacrificed their jobs or lost careers because they have been willing to come forward with information about criminal activities such as the Murdoch case? Like everyone else, a priest has a moral responsibility to help protect potential victims and to cooperate with law enforcement in the interests of justice. If the sacrament of reconciliation could "cure" pedophiles, then I'd agree that priests should keep information about such crimes secret, but it does not "cure" the criminal, so it should not protect him from justice. The criminal has the right to God's forgiveness, but not to escape from criminal law.

@jacersagain - you're right, Irish Catholics will show their wrath to the Government if they implement this policy. However its only the shrinking minority who would share similar views to your own I think. The real wrath of Irish Catholics is falling where it rightly and justly should; on the heads of the misguided, insincere and shallow clerics who have been shown to have preached one thing to the faithfu, but practiced another entirely. By all means support the priests who uphold the seal of confession, but why do you have such a limited misssion in your life? Why not support the priests who despite all that has happened who continue to preach the true message of a loving God. I really think that errant Clerics who have forsaken that message now find themselves in the eye of a storm that is not going to end anytime soon. Be they Cardinals, Bishops or Priests, they are now feeling, and will continue to feel the the "wrath of the rain" until they finally come to accept and acknowledge what they have done. If God is truly with his church (the "faithful") then there is nothing that they can do, nowhere they can hide to avoid the will of God. You and I (and others) can debate the rights and wrongs of whatever; what really matters is that if God has decided to "call time" on part of his church on earth, then that is going to happen!! @sirpeter - more anon!!

@HorsesInMdstrm.Glad you understand my sense of humour.It isn't always understood on IC.God says you don't need a conduit that he/she is always willing to listen when you call direct.But he understands that at this stage in our evolution not everyone has the mental capacity or self-assurance to reach out and go it alone.We are still holding eachothers hands for reassurance so to speak.This will not always be the case.At one stage in our evolution we were not self aware but now we have an intellectual self awareness,a form of higher consciousness.He told me to tell you in time all humans will do away with the conduit (meaning all those childish holding hands religions)and relate to God in a less fearful way and on an even more higher conscious level.God says like a baby we are taking our first few shakey steps but we are still very stupid because we keep knocking eachother over in our haste to get to him.;))

I support the priests who swear to uphold the seal of Confession. The Irish Government, led by a meek Taoiseach intimidated by the Big Bully, atheist Ruarí Quinn (who is attacking Irish Catholic Religious Orders on his own accord) with Jewish Minister Alan Shatter supporting him, is crazy to think they can invade the privacy of the Catholic Confessional box. So much for separation of Church and State... now the Irish State wants to govern the Sacrament of Penance. Eh? Crazy! If I go to confession, I confess my sins, my transgressions, against God’s Ten Commandments, each of them beautifully encompassed and replaced by the New Covenant that God’s Son, Jesus Christ, made with us humans through His Two Commandments: To love God and to Love Our Neighbours. When I am in the Confessional, it is a spiritual matter about my sins between me as a human being and the Supreme God, through His Son, Jesus, under that New Covenant. If I am arrested by the police or if I go to the police and confess that I’ve broken the law of the land, then that is a civil or criminal matter. The way in which I practice my Catholic faith is guaranteed by the Irish Constitution; therefore, any infringement on that guarantee, such as the proposed law on forcing priests to break the seal of my spiritual confessions of sin, is unconstitutional and doomed to failure. On this matter, the Irish Government is going to face the wrath of, not just the priests of Ireland but that of Irish Catholics. A Big Head-on clash is coming. A sin is a spiritual matter; a crime is a civil matter. Church and State must be kept separate.

I believe that, in many parts of the US, medical and mental health professionals are required to report suspicions of child abuse. Why should an organization such as the church be permitted to set up their own rules, and claim this ridiculous privilege? Think where that could lead. @sirpeter - If the priest is the conduit to God for one confessing, why do we need the conduit? For the structure, for the counseling (Is the priest trained or licensed?), for the reassurance? Since you are the one with the direct line (I understand the humor), ask the entity at the other end what he/she/it/?? thinks.

@barneyjo.Well I was lead to believe that there was mortal sin and venial sin.Murder was classed as a mortal sin and to die with a mortal sin on your soul then you went to hell.If you confessed to a priest before you died and was genunely sorry for the murder you were forgiven by God and received absolution and you went to heaven in a state of grace.I was told God is capable of forgiving even the worse murderer.As far as I know the Ten Commandments that were handed down from God to Moses are the mortal/major sins.Everything else is a venial sin.The church can use it's own perogative in respect of a unique set of circumstances.But it cannot change the Ten Commandments.Like the Hippocratic Oath with doctors it's first rule is "Do no harm" The same could be said of Priests.A person could truely believe that they have sinned/offended but it could be just a figment of their imagination or some mental problem like people confessing to murders that they never did just for attention.If the Priest broke the seal of confession and told the authorities he would be doing harm at the very least to that persons reputation.Also because the Priest cannot be 100% sure weather a person is telling the truth or not in confessional.He runs the risk of committing a mortal sin himself "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour"By that I mean the priest himself could be an abuse victim and like all abuse victims their judgement is coloured.

(Con’t)If he reported an innocent person by mistake.Then at the very least the priest would have a struggle with his conscience .Only God doesn't make mistakes so I guess Priests don't want to take that chance.Barneyjo I don't even go to Mass or listen to Priests or read up on this stuff.But I think I'm putting up a good argument in a simple way without confusing people or getting to complex.It may make sense to some people what I write and that's great or it may make no sense and that's fine as well.Since I'm in Gods field of expertise I did ask him/her for help.Now that WE are finished with this comment.He told me also to be nice to barneyjo that she has something special in her heart and is of great value to this site of sinners.I felt he was pointing the finger at me lol ;)

@sirpeter - Ah, but it surely is the case that there are certain types of sin such as murder for which absolution is unobtainable? Equally, is it not also documented that in 19th and 20th century Ireland, and in certain Diocese only the production of Poteen was to be regarded as such a major sin to the degree that only a local bishop as self-appointed confessor could grant absolution to those who confessed to making or drinking "the stuff!! This second instance clearly shows the church acting on its own perogative in respect of a unique set of circumstance rather than leaving it entirely in the hands of God. If such a precedent could be set in some instances, but not in others, then it seems to me that the sacradoetal seal is not necessarily held to apply in all instances.