70 Comments

• stanJames | Mar 22, 2012, 12:29 AM EDT

  I thought raping children was grotesque and madness. And hiding it was ever more so. To HELL with him and his buddies in the hierarchy.

• stanJames | Mar 22, 2012, 12:24 AM EDT

  Tehy have dug their own hole with their demonization of gay people, calling them intrinsicly disordered and evil etc. Not the hierarchy will have to suffer with what they have wrought................Gay marriage is coming to virtually all of the westernized world, and in 20 year will leave the catholic church on the same plane with the MUslims.......................All these horrific BS statements are nothing but the hierarchy realizing their power and money will be gone. HOpefully they do not qualify for unemployment insurance. Good riddance to the lot. Maybe they can have fun molesting each other.....BTW google "Pope UNexcommunicates holocaust denier" and you will see what/ who runs the vatican today.

• mayoman | Mar 16, 2012, 01:11 PM EDT

  Will this bigotry ever end?

• eiriamach | Mar 14, 2012, 04:26 PM EDT

  God bless you, Tommy Nawn! Are you living in Ireland? Or the USA?

• montour | Mar 14, 2012, 10:12 AM EDT

  my friend, hughes cuneod died a year ago at 105, he was aworld famous countertenor they live in switzerland and were married in a same sexunion it is now legal in the whole country of switzerland GOD LOVESALL HIS CREATURES AND HERE IS A GAY PERSON WHO DIED AT 106, tommy nawn in the usa, my age is 73

• PEGKELLY | Mar 13, 2012, 06:30 PM EDT

  The madness and slavery was the sexual abuse of minors by priests (some of whom are now bishops0 . The record of the Church on slavery is egregious as witnessed by the Indiansin Mexico and what is now California.

• hollabackgurl | Mar 13, 2012, 03:05 PM EDT

  Trust the man in the dress and the golden hat.

• eiriamach | Mar 13, 2012, 08:09 AM EDT

  @STEVENSTAR, it is not quite as bad as it looks on IC. Yes, there are too many Irish-descended American homophobes expressing their prejudices on IC, but notice also that some who actually discuss the issue are reading from the same scripts. There is a coordinated Catholic effort targeting IC. They repeat the same failed arguments; they ignore facts cited by others, and they quickly engage in name-calling and emotional outbursts when challenged. I trust that most visitors simply recognize this campaign for what it is. We know that 71% of American Catholics support civil marriage equality for gays. The Public Religion Research Institute's recent study concludes that “Catholics are more supportive of legal recognitions of same-sex relationships than members of any other Christian tradition and Americans overall” and that “Catholic support for rights for gays and lesbian people is strong and slightly higher than the general public.” On IC you cannot gauge the extent of that support because a determined group of papists defends the indefensible and threatens others with hellfire. With this political effort, the church seems to be "hitting bottom," which is a place where either death or radical change happens.

• eiriamach | Mar 13, 2012, 07:28 AM EDT

  The state does not take its definition of marriage from religion. The state has an interest in marriage because stable homes provide the best environments for children to grow up and because the family is a basic social unit keeping people connected with each other and protecting their privacy. But we the people decide what marriage is. We have changed the "definition of marriage" many times over the centuries, usually to protect children and women from abuse and exploitation. Because marriage offers benefits to spouses and children, we must not exclude committed same-sex couples from it. Studies have shown that children raised by same-sex partners are as successful as children raised by heterosexual parents, that they are are likely to have heterosexual orientation as other children, and that they develop greater tolerance than children of heterosexual parents. Homosexual children of heterosexual parents face the most severe challenges when their parents, teachers and friends reject their orientation and insist that they change. Lacking support, often victims of bullying, they can become suicidal. Including same-sex couples as full-fledged legal families will help all children grow to be tolerant, cooperative adults and no one's victims. Also, RCC's opposition to same-sex marriage, as Crd. O'Brien's words clearly show, encourages the bigotry and bullying that continue to divide us.

• STEVENSTAR | Mar 13, 2012, 06:42 AM EDT

  THIS IS OBVIOUSLY AN AMERICAN NEWSPAPER ... BELIEVE ME YOU ARE SO FAR REMOVED FROM IRISH CULTURE AND HOW THINGS HAPPEN OVER HERE .. BLESS U ... WE ARE DUE TO GET GAY MARRIAGE OVER HERE AND IN A REFERENDUM IN 2009 72% OF IRISH PEOPLE AGREE WITH GAY MARRIAGE ... UNFORTUNATELY AMERICANS ARE WAY MORE HOMOPHOBIC THEN WE ARE ... THE BISHOP SHOULD ALSO BE MORE CONCERNED WITH CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE WHICH HAPPENED OVER HERE AND HAS NOW RESULTED SO MANY IRISH PEOPLE ( IRISH WHO WERE BORN IN IRELAND) NOT GOING TO MASS ANYMORE ... WHAT HAPPENED WAS SICKENING .. AND HAS ALSO RESULTED IN US RECENTLY CLOSING THE IRISH EMBASSY IN THE VATICAN.... THIS NEWSPAER IS REALLY AN AMERICAN NEWSPAPER WITH AMERICAN VIEWS ON IRELAND ITS NOT IRISH AND I TAKE IT IN THAT SPIRIT BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHATS GOING ON IN IRELAND READ A PROPER IRISH NEWSPAPER BECAUSE THIS IS VERY WISHY WASHY NEWS ON HERE ..AND A BIT OVER THE TOP DRAMATIC WHISH IS SO TYPICALLY AMERICAN .. GOOD DAY !

• Collette2 | Mar 13, 2012, 02:12 AM EDT

  SingleDonald, you gave him food for thought, good on you. I wonder what he tells his fornicating priest's.

• peterson | Mar 12, 2012, 08:27 PM EDT

  Only time can tell who WAS right !!

• ludwig123 | Mar 12, 2012, 07:45 PM EDT

  Strange he wants to compare same sex marriage to slavery---they are not one and the same. It is the Catholic Church that has engaged in slavery for years---among its clergy--all those Monks and Nuns that almost never were paid anything for their services. Thank goodness for Father Thomas Merton--he helped reform that.

• ludwig123 | Mar 12, 2012, 07:43 PM EDT

  This is much more of the stupidity and false propaganda that we are hearing from the Romans (Catholics). This man does not love his neighbor as Jesus taught. As he says ' 'gay marriage is "madness" and a "grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right". That is wrong--religion is no excuse to deny people their human and civil rights and this is what this man and his boss the Pope-are all about--power and greed --not about God.

• ahlclyde | Mar 12, 2012, 06:39 PM EDT

  As you can see from the comments here, many Catholics on both sides of this issue are really screwed up, and I don't want anything to do with that church, and they certainly should have nothing to do with my civil rights. It remains the fact that married couples in the US have over 1600 laws on the books that favor them over me and my partner of 35 years.The procreation argument is especially galling to me. My mother remarried after my father's death, and she and her husband had 25 years of a wonderful marriage, with no possability of procreating. Their marriage was based on love and support and was aided by several laws available ONLY to married couples. What's fair is fair, and marriage is about a lot of things besides procreation for the Catholic minority.

• Seanmor | Mar 12, 2012, 02:36 PM EDT

  Hermit: The first sentence of your last comment reminds me of wtat I learned in the Cloyne Catechisn a half century ago: "We must obey the temperal rulers and all those in high station that we may lead quiet and peaceful lives". However, that doesn't mean that the state is empowered to define marriage or any other sacrament, or determine the qualification for receiving any sacrament.

• SingleDonald | Mar 12, 2012, 11:08 AM EDT

  After reading the comments below, I am again reminded of the Church's position that "anything sexual, outside of marriage, is a 'sin'." Although they (the Church heirachy) have downplayed this nonsense, in recent years, it is still part of their teaching. I went to confession last week, the face-to face kind. The monsignor was patient, but still clung to old taboos. I accept that using a woman for selfish, lustful purposes is wrong, but not if the man gives her physical & emotional needs priority, or at least consideration. When the priest reviewed the 3 qualifications of committing a "mortal sin",(serious matter, full awareness that it is, and full consent)I responded that I didn't consider sexual thoughts, or even consensual sexuality to be "serious matters". He stated that St. Paul said that "fornication" was a sin; I said that it wasn't. I thought that this might be the first time, in my entire life, that a priest refused me absolution, in confession. The Monsignor was kind; my penance was to pray, keeping in mind the mercy of God. I want to go to the rectory, and explain why St. Paul was wrong, but my gut feeling is that I should "quit while I'm ahead"! To be brief, St. Paul lived in a much different time. He also had some misogynist feelings. In today's world, two people don't see the need to enter into a (hopefully) lifelong commitment, just to express their love & devotion to each other. The Church can't get over the procreation aspect of sex, and can't see that a man and a woman may wish to communicate intimately with each other, without creating a child every time!

• montour | Mar 12, 2012, 09:42 AM EDT

  remember, hitler murdered many gay men, thank the lord we have predident obama and now tony blair on our side, probaly even price willam and harry

• montour | Mar 12, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT

  gay men are being murdered in afghanstan, gat teens are commiting suicide because of who they are i am 73 cradle born catholic and gay shame on obrien and benedict, after all look at his background, i am fighing msd. tommy nawn, in the usa

• hollabackgurl | Mar 12, 2012, 08:41 AM EDT

  The primary purpose of marriage is not procreation. If it were then priests would refuse most heterosexual couples. Half-baked claims like that demonstrate why the anti-gay side have lost the argument. Prejudice is no substitute for reason. Bigots are lazy thinkers.

• IrelandNorth | Mar 12, 2012, 06:28 AM EDT

  Not sure about the correlation of homosexual marriages with slavery, but agree with the thrust of the theocrats' argument. The primary purpose of marriage is procreation. Since procreation for same sex couples is a biological oxymoron, why marry? The campaign for same sex marriages (sic) is really homosexual evangelism.

• helmet365 | Mar 12, 2012, 03:27 AM EDT

  KatieMurphy,Keep up your good work,the church is not there for them. You mentioned suicides,if some other group like scientology were responsible for a small number of suicides they would be closed down. Google the names Fr Gerald Risdale, Desmond Gammon and Bro Best convicted pedophile catholic clerics, Melbourme Australia. Police say they were responsible for 26 youths committing suicide. They and journalists have since increased this to possibly more than 35 and of course many other lives ruined.One of Cardinal Robert's fellow Melbourne Cardinals accompanied one priest to court to give a character reference.Victims were on treir own. As i said any other group would be closed They have power and influence over the policy makers, Regards.

• alisaann | Mar 12, 2012, 03:03 AM EDT

  GOOD for tony blair....he's standing up for HUMAN RIGHTS...and i say to HELL WITH THE CHURCH...their GOOD at HIDING child rapists....this is about TRUE LOVE. alisa

• KatieMurphy | Mar 12, 2012, 01:45 AM EDT

  thanks helmet365. I long ago left the church in spirit if not physically, when I was told I would burn in hell for eternity if I didnt do as I was told..............I've been forever happy for the priest who threatened me and my brother................All we have to do is remember that Jesus told us to "love thy neighbor as thyself"............Something totally missing in todays church and much of its past............Now we spend much of our spare time helping gay youth - generally of college age recover from the terrorism of the church..... Try this one - a gay 21 year old male told me "my catholic parents hate themselves for having me (gay), and hate me for existings"..............When I asked him "you arent' suicidal, are you? (the greatest danger re gay youth)..........he said "I wouldnt give them the satisfaction of my suicide"....................What a horrible scene this perfectly decent youth has had to live through and at least survived. May God open up Vesuvius two under the Vatican - the Islam (or worse) of the western world.

• KatieMurphy | Mar 12, 2012, 01:35 AM EDT

  whats mad and grotesque is the endless hidden molestation of church of Omerta.................Reminds me that the cardinal thinks the old BS about "if you tell a lie often enough and outrageous enough, it will be seen as the truth....................Sorry, cardinal - 55 million died for that game in WWII. Courtesy of a catholic named AH.

• ahlclyde | Mar 12, 2012, 12:49 AM EDT

  I really don't want to marry rhe Cardinal anyway . That would be pretty mad and grotesque. I do want to marry my partner of 35 years, and see no reason why any civil government in the world should listen to and form their laws based on such a bunch of irrelivant claptrap.

• helmet365 | Mar 12, 2012, 12:34 AM EDT

  Well said KatieMurphy. As God has not manifested himself or herself to anyone or any religious group on earth all church doctrine is man made. As its beliefs are made up of centuries of rubbish it will die.This is the first time in the history of the church the masses are questioning beliefs without fear of judgment and eternal fire threats and as a result they are leaving in droves.As the bishop of Dublin said some parishes church attendance has dropped from 98 percent to 2 percent. I personally have left them in my advanced years and have gained something I never had before and that is tremendous peace of mind,like leaving some religious cult.

• KatieMurphy | Mar 11, 2012, 11:47 PM EDT

  Let the church rant. It is all but dead in Europe and per the Irish Times online, 73% of the Irish, almost all of whom are considered catholic, support changing the constitution to allow our gay and lesbian friends and neighbors to have full dignity of civil "marriage".................As for the church, we are witnessing the end of an era. That began in 400 Ad when Constantine joined with the church, giving the world the beginning of a 1000 year dark ages...............the bishops etc are all terrified that they might have to do somehting usefull for society, instead of throwing out what is nothing but pure hatred against another part of Gods wondrous creation. The same Bishops etc that gave the church its policy of Omerta re the unmarried priests endless hidden molestation of children..............Our whole family is gone from the church, except for a few of the older folks stuck with its mytheology.................Justice for our gay friends etc is coming, and justice for the church will be when it goes to its grave, as the old American saying about a spy during the US revolutionary war "unwept, unhonored and unsung.............And to be somewhat crude, for the vatican, GOOD RIDDANCE.

• HorsesInMdstrm | Mar 11, 2012, 09:09 PM EDT

  A couple of thoughts - the Cardinal appears to have been born in the island we call Ireland, if that's what we choose to call. Who cares what political subdivision he was born in, or conceived in for that matter? Maybe we're hung up on the word 'marriage'. How's about we call what the churches perform either matrimony or marriage, and use the other word to describe what civil authorities do. Why should we pay attention to what the man in the silly hat with the red iron crosses says. He's going to say what Benny tells him to, or he wouldn't be in the job. Benny still hasn't been exonerated of covering up for pedophile priests when he was cardinal or archbishop, don't know which. What I'd like to see if a papal edict that says you believe everything that the catholic church says, or you're out. No exceptions. Won't take as long to count the money in the basket, will it?

• Newrone | Mar 11, 2012, 08:16 PM EDT

  Catholic priests, bishops & cardinals jetisoned any claim to the moral high ground on relationships a long time ago.
  
  How can any of them preach about "Marriage" when none of them even know what it is?!!!
  
  Personally, I find the gradual self-destruction of the god-brigade rather amusing, if a little slow.

• PolinDeB | Mar 11, 2012, 07:11 PM EDT

  All those of you who propose to be christians and still villify gay people, should start calling yourselves Jews. Jesus's message was of compassion and non judgment. Either get with the script or get out of the religion. And don't tell me the Pope may you do it. Christian.. Christ.. Compassion... end of.. Love one another as I have loved you. Calling someone a pervert or grotesque is not Love.. And by the way I'm not Gay either.. But you guys are definitely the anti-christ. Did Jesus call people names and make them feel bad.. look at the log in your own eye...but maybe that's what your afraid of.

• GregShox | Mar 11, 2012, 07:08 PM EDT

  PiperMac, I'd love to see a man and a chair disagreeing. I once had an argument with a door frame and the door frame won.

• PolinDeB | Mar 11, 2012, 07:07 PM EDT

  hmm.. the catholic church is looking as delusional as Murdoch these days.. They should all be fiddling..

• ballylanger | Mar 11, 2012, 06:50 PM EDT

  What part of 'religion being a scam' do people not understand. Logically, when a scam is discovered the perpetrators should be either jailed of run out of town. Catholic 'logic' means that they get to screw the kids before they go.

• ballylanger | Mar 11, 2012, 06:01 PM EDT

  SeamusMor the good cardinal should leave the holy spirit in the bottle me thinks he drinks too much.Maybe seamus would like to photograph the holy spirit and post it on IC.

• PiperMac52 | Mar 11, 2012, 04:37 PM EDT

  SeamusMor: no the Holy Spirit was NOT speaking through those priests that you refer to involved in abuse. That is obvious to any Christian who studies the teachings of the faith as well as sacred scripture. There will always be wolves in sheep's clothing and unholy priests, Rabbis, Ministers etc. as this is Satan world and we as fallen beings are easily swayed by his deceptions and lies. Until Christ comes again will will "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" as scripture tells us. Many within the church have lost their faith(including priests)and have embraced the culture. That will always lead to scandal and debasement. There are however tens of thousands of good, holy priests who still offer themselves to Christ's good works. Sadly, they pay a price as well for the actions of those fallen brethren.

• PiperMac52 | Mar 11, 2012, 03:57 PM EDT

  The Cardinal is right on all counts. In fact anyone with a properly formed conscience and ability to objectively reason, in other words it has not been corrupted by decades of cultural debasement and moral relativism/nihilism, would understand as well. In the natural order of things(put in place by the creator)it has always been accepted that marriage is between a man and a woman and that Homosexual acts are debased and disordered. The history of mankind corroborates this fact.Left to his own devices fallen man will always redefine wrong/right, evil as good to fit his own hedonistic desires. It is the job of Christs' church to remain steadfast in his immutable teachings. Just because some famous politician disagrees with the Chair of Peter does not give the argument any more weight.

• SeamusMor | Mar 11, 2012, 03:51 PM EDT

  No.

• mamaginnty | Mar 11, 2012, 03:29 PM EDT

  SeamusMor was the holy spirit speaking through the voices of the priests, bishops and nuns who bullied beat and raped for decades our sons and daughters. I think god will listen to the abused and not Rome.

• mamaginnty | Mar 11, 2012, 03:22 PM EDT

  The so called servants of the church are the grotesque, the mad ones, still thinking they can get us to submit to them.

• Gearoid4 | Mar 11, 2012, 02:59 PM EDT

  A country is so recognized if it has recognizable qualities like a different language, culture etc which makes it considerable different from it's surrounding neighbours. Now the vast majority of the place-names within the territory encompassed by "northern ireland" are in reality anglicized versions of the original Irish gaelic. Any external cultural or linguistic influences brought in by Scots or English planters, while important, is just so much topsoil covering the foundational Irish culture. This jurisdiction is not a "province" as the counties of Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan were left out from the partitionist settlement, to render it one of the most blatant acts of gerrymandering in political history. The vast majority of people in Derry or Tyrone are ethnically the same as their counterparts in Donegal or Monaghan and thus are every bit as Irish I know about the reported cases of sex-abuse which have been revealed concerning the Catholic Church in Ireland and are indeed shocking. But your take on it is that every priest seems to be a suspect when the truth is that the vast majority of priests and religious in Ireland have characters of good standing and feel soiled to be associated with anyone who has abused children. The Church currently has in place very robust procedures which reflect best practice in terms of today to combat the scourge of child-abuse.

• Collette2 | Mar 11, 2012, 02:39 PM EDT

  Looking at the good cardinal, once again it doesn't look like sackcloth and ashes does it.

• Collette2 | Mar 11, 2012, 02:36 PM EDT

  Tell me who on earth would ever take what Tony Blair say's seriously. He became a Catholic by stealth, and after seeing him embracing Muammar Gaddafi and breaking bread with him at the time of the Lockerbie prisoner exchange, no thanks.

• pilib04 | Mar 11, 2012, 02:04 PM EDT

  SeamusMor, the Holy Spirit is not a homophobe. Slan go foill, mo chara.

• pilib04 | Mar 11, 2012, 02:00 PM EDT

  Tony Blair and David Cameron agree. Although I normally do not agree with English politicians, in this case I would agree. As for the good Cardinal of Scotland, "hush down", as my auntie would say. Keith Cardinal O'Brien should spend his time rooting out the pedophiles hidden and/or protected in our church instead of attacking gays. As for his Irish/Northern Ireland ancestry, both are correct. He was born in Ireland of which the political jurisdiction of Northern Ireland is a part of. Similarly, Basil McCrea was born in the Republic of Ireland (Donegal town, Donegal) but is a politician in Northern Ireland and certainly considers himself British. It is up to the individual to decide what their nationality is. If you are in the Republic you can still consider yourself British based on the the Good Friday Agreement. Likewise if you live in the Northern Ireland you can still consider yourself Irish.

• Pat123 | Mar 11, 2012, 01:56 PM EDT

  I don't understand this at all. Forever, churches have had their own rules about who can and cannot get married "in the church." There are almost always differences between what constitutes a secular marriage and one in the church. What is one more difference? Doesn't the Bishop have something more important to talk about? At the least, he would look smarter if he didn't try to make such far-fetched arguments.

• hollabackgurl | Mar 11, 2012, 01:55 PM EDT

  Forget the old man in the dress. 46% of Canadians are baptized Catholic: they have universal health care, contraception, sex education, gay marriage, abortion - and no problems.

• SeamusMor | Mar 11, 2012, 01:43 PM EDT

  The Holy Spirit speaks to us through the voice of Keith Cardinal O'Brien! We should listen.

• Gearoid4 | Mar 11, 2012, 01:40 PM EDT

  @byethebay, "Northern Ireland" is a totally artificial construct whose border does not coincide with any pre-existing international frontier. Thousands of people who reside within it's jurisdiction consider themselves Irish and not British and carry Irish passports. You go on about pedophilia being "rampant" within Catholic circles. But it seems that you are letting your anti-Catholic bias get in the way of the truth. This terrible evil is much more prevalent in family circles and in such sectors as national public school systems. Reliable studies show that instances of pedophilia within the Catholic priesthood is no worse than occurrences within other Christian faith groups or other religions. This is not to condone the activities of the criminals within the priesthood who carried out those heinous acts or the bishops who covered them up. @CharlieM, Of course, Archbishop O'Brien was born in Ireland. The last time, I checked an atlas, the territory known as "northern Ireland" was contained within the Island of Ireland. Let us get away from the distorted notion, that the Republic of Ireland is the totality of Ireland. The archbishop has made an articulate and forthright case for the negative consequences of tampering with the age-old understanding of marriage by this foolhardy legal attempt to redefine it.

• hollabackgurl | Mar 11, 2012, 01:29 PM EDT

  Forget the thousands of abused Children and the Church's complete refusal to acknowledge or help them: bash gays instead! The Church wasn't interested in helping kids but it's going to war over women and gays! Fascinating!

• occassio | Mar 11, 2012, 12:51 PM EDT

  “Imagine for a moment that the Government had decided to legalize slavery but assured us that "no one will be forced to keep a slave." One doesn’t have to imagine. It happened. Cardinal O’Brien’s comments are an inane comparison to complex issues -- and a whopping non sequitur. Or, perhaps, just utter nonsense and drivel meant to strike fear into the minds of the untutored and turn back the clock to the Reformation when witch hunts were the method used to consign to flames anyone feared, disliked or of another opinion. Outrageous!

• CitizenWhy | Mar 11, 2012, 12:06 PM EDT

  Whew? Is it ignorance or hatred or just a very bad education leading to a weird misuse of metaphor? This man's mouth will only confirm to the majority that those against gay marriage walk on the loony side of the street.

• springs1 | Mar 11, 2012, 11:57 AM EDT

  What does the good cardinal liken pedophile priests to...spiritual leaders with benefits?

• pounder | Mar 11, 2012, 11:43 AM EDT

  Money, it's all about the medical coverages.

• jamthecat | Mar 11, 2012, 11:29 AM EDT

  No one is asking the church to bless or officiate over gay marriages; we just want the same legal rights and privileges as any other marriage. That is something determined by the state, not the church. So who the hell is he to say what the state can and cannot do? If he wants to run the state, then take away his church's special tax exempt status and let him pay for being part of it. Otherwise, he should STFU.

• irishtxn | Mar 11, 2012, 11:18 AM EDT

  One phrase! How repugnant!

• montour | Mar 11, 2012, 11:18 AM EDT

  being of irish heritage and born in the usa, i laugh at it all, francis cardinal spellman the late archbishop of new york was gat, yes, and being the military archbishop for the armed services he loved the boys in uniform. rest his soul, does the prsent arch dolan know this, tommy nawn in virginia,usa

• nivekderf | Mar 11, 2012, 10:43 AM EDT

  I have just read the nutty cardinal's comments. He staunchly defends the human right to marriage, in the same way that he and his compatriots defend other human rights, including the human right to practise contraception. Oh! I forgot, the catholic heirarchy are against that particular human right, aren't they? Of course it's ok for catholic priests to have gay relationships with choirboys though, isn't it?

• montour | Mar 11, 2012, 10:32 AM EDT

  here i am at 73 and gay, born that way, when i see the church persecuting my brothers and sisters it hurts deeply hitler murdered gay men i never hear the archbishop of canterbury calling us names, think of young people who are thrown out of their homes than the bgood lord for president obama and tony blair happy saint patrick day from me tommy nawn

• rugbyplayer | Mar 11, 2012, 10:21 AM EDT

  Given the venom against Gays and lesbians, single parents, womens' reproductive rights, same sex marriage, women in the priesthood, etc., emanating from the Vatican's chief protagonist, Benedict XVI, silly Cardinal Keith O'Brien like his autocratic USA counterpart, Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, is just mouthing what the Vatican expects him of New York, only function as fawning Vatican-inspired mouthpieces. Both the late John Paul II and Benedict XVI have completely populated the R.C. hierarchy worldwide today with yes men who either share the Vatican's attempt to marginalize innocent persons who happen to be homosexual (much as the Nazi's did with European Jews decades ago) or or who are too timid to fight back against such libel from the Vatican for fear of punishment. Only when enough bishops fight back against Vatican autocracy, its chronic interference in the affairs of sovereign states and its condemnation of any person or state that differs from its arcane worldviews will we witness any dramatic change. But given the caliber of today's R.C.hierarchy, I seriously doubt if we will see any spark of humility and compassion coming from the Vatican.

• pilib04 | Mar 11, 2012, 10:17 AM EDT

  Apparently the good Cardinal does not believe it is possible to differ with ones opponents and not make it personal. The his description of gays is beyond the pale. As a Catholic, once again I disassociate myself from the hierarchy. Of course Catholics have been doing that for hundreds of years, particularly Irish Catholics.

• joma5004 | Mar 11, 2012, 10:15 AM EDT

  jacersagain, the fact that you are here is proof enough that an incestuous relationship between brother and sister does indeed occur!

• hermitTalker | Mar 11, 2012, 10:14 AM EDT

  Simple facts. The State has the right to regulate people's lives for the common good, but must respect fundamental rights; in he US for example several states used ban inter-racial marriages, and many towns would not allow Catholics to build a church. The officiating cleric at a marriage in the UK snd US is a registrar of the ceremony when he has a license from the local Government. MARRIAGE has always and ever been seen as between male and female, regardlees of whether the male was Old Testament King or Roman or Greek male who had male lovers as well. LET the State regulate unions between Jack and Joe, Jill and Jacquie and make rules for folks living together as far as property, legal rights of kids and insurance. However playing GOD to re-define what marriage is is GOD's role.

• BrianO | Mar 11, 2012, 10:07 AM EDT

  Enough already, frankly I'm all gayed out, you can't swing a cat without hitting some gay activist. I would think you would be happy with a built in excuse not to get married, what's the divorce rate these days. But the real reason for the gay marriage fight is to destroy the family unit and it's traditions, much easier to implement communism over a godless proletariat.

• GregShox | Mar 11, 2012, 09:58 AM EDT

  MacGregor, the hint is in the word "Ireland".

• hollabackgurl | Mar 11, 2012, 09:32 AM EDT

  Um, Northern Ireland is part of the tiny island of Ireland, MacGregor, not Poland. If you're born there on anywhere on that island you have the right to an Irish passport. Most people from Northern Ireland say they are Irish. You obviously haven't visited.

• MacGregor | Mar 11, 2012, 09:24 AM EDT

  Keith O'Brien is not "Irish-born" as he was born in Northern Ireland which remains seperate from the Republic of Ireland.

• hollabackgurl | Mar 11, 2012, 09:17 AM EDT

  For most Americans a much greater concern than the freedom of religion is the freedom from religion.

• hollabackgurl | Mar 11, 2012, 09:17 AM EDT

  What you have failed to grasp is that gay people and their friends and relations don't give a fig if an old greybeard like yourself or the Cardinal consider it 'true' marriage or not. Gay people have a fundamental right to be free of any state-sanctioned religion and its dictates.

• jacersagain | Mar 11, 2012, 09:05 AM EDT

  Blair is wrong and the Cardinal is right. There can never ever be any truth in any gay "marriage". One can call it whatever one likes but gay marriage will never ever be true Marriage. What next?... just because a brother and sister love each other we can have incestuous marriage next?