Irish Presidential favorite David Norris defends underage sex interview - POLL
Writer says she found his views on sex with minors ‘deeply disturbing’
By: JAMES FARRELL | Published Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 7:08 AM | Updated Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 11:20 AM
David Norris, the gay Irish senator who is favorite to become Ireland’s next president has had to defend controversial remarks he made in a 2002 interview in
Magill Magazine about sexuality and sex with minors.
The issue has resurfaced as Norris has become the bookmaker’s favorite to be the next president especially after the withdrawal of
John Bruton, the former Prime Minister, at the weekend.
Writer Helen Lucey Burke who did the original interview back in 2002 went public again with it on
RTE, Ireland state broacasting station on the popular
Joe Duffy Show.
Poltics.ie which carried the original Magill story had over 21,000 comments within 24 hours, the overwhelming majority of them negative.
In response to the story resurfacing
Norris, a
Trinity College Joycean scholar, issued a statement on his web site which stated;
“I was the subject of a profile in
Magill Magazine conducted by the restaurant critic and columnist Helen Lucy Burke for Magill Magazine in 2002. During the course of a comprehensive conversation, Miss Burke and I engaged an academic discussion about classical Greece and sexual activity in a historical context; it was a hypothetical, intellectual conversation which should not have been seen as a considered representation of my views on some of the issues discussed over dinner.
“The article did contain other valid comments from me on human rights and equality issues but the references to sexual activity were what were emphasised and subsequently picked up and taken out of context in other media.”
The writer of the article Helen Lucy Burke has denied that she quoted him out of context and stated in response “I found some of his views on sexual matters deeply disturbing - notably on sex with minors...”
She stated the main parts of the interview she objected to were the following comments made by
Norris.
"In terms of classic paedophilia, as practised by the Greeks for example, where it is an older man introducing a younger man or boy to adult life, I think there can be something to be said for it. And in terms of North African experience this is endemic.
Now again, this is not something that appeals to me, although when I was younger it would most certainly have appealed to me in the sense that I would have greatly relished the prospect of an older, attractive, mature man taking me under his wing, lovingly introducing me to sexual realities, and treating me with affection and teaching me about life - yes, I think that would be lovely; I would have enjoyed that."...
"But I think there is complete and utter hysteria about this subject, and there is also confusion between ... paedophilia and pederasty..."[David Norris clarified this later, explaining that genital sexual penetration of juveniles of either sex would be inappropiate and harmful]...
"In my opinion, the teacher, or
Christian Brother, who puts his hand into a boy's pocket during a history lesson, that is one end of the spectrum. but then there is another: there is the person who attacks children of either sex, rapes them, brutalises them, and then murders them. But the way things are presented here it's almost as if they were all exactly the same and I don't think they are. And I have to tell you this -- I think that the children in some instances are more damaged by the condemnation than by the actual experience."
The right of unfettered sexual activity guided by the principle of mutual consent would be Norris's perception of the way things should be, with a bar only on intimidation, bullying or bribery. He did not appear to endorse any minimum age or endure any protest that a child was not capable of informed consent. "The law in this sphere should take in to account consent rather than age".
When I asked about incest, he hesitated, and concluded that in the case of girls a case could be made for a ban, as possible resulting pregnancy might be genetically undesirable.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.seanomelbourne | Jun 02, 2011, 12:01 AM EDT
hollabackgurl his sexuality should not be an issue here his anti-irish rhetoric is how can he denounce Ireland for leaving the empire and castigate the 1916 leaders and expect to be elected president of a state that he denounces how hypocritical.
hollabackgurl | Jun 01, 2011, 08:58 PM EDT
This article convinces me that this is a desperate smear campaign that stirring homophobia to damage the candidate from an out of context interview he gave TEN years ago - if you actually read the article and look at the man's career you can see this hateful garbage for what it is.
jacersagain | Jun 01, 2011, 07:29 PM EDT
Come on now folks... Really, now let’s be real. David Norris is honest enough to have publicly declared during past years a few things close to his heart... his love of homosexuality, his contemptibility of women’s’ bodies, his pride in his Congolese (not Sth African) birth, his love of James Joyce, his deep regret that he “would have liked...” if some older man would have taken him under his wing in his very early childhood, his despising of the efforts of the Patriots of the 1916 Irish Easter Rising, his idea that we Irish were really silly to have left the Commonwealth of the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland in the late 1940s and his belief that we really should rejoin it again today. Since we really left the Commonwealth and established a Republic with a President as its Head of State, why, given all he has ‘honestly’ stated he believes in, is he pursuing election to a Head of State Office that he believes should not exist? Moreover, in 2016, the next elected President of Ireland will have to stand in front of the General Post Office in Dublin where the Patriots of Ireland, at the greatest human cost, made their stand against 800 years of British Rule. Do I see, and I ask all, do you see David standing as my country’s President in front of Dublin’s GPO - and in front of all the world’s TV stations - doing that, given what he believes?? Really????
seanomelbourne | May 31, 2011, 11:42 PM EDT
His sexuality is not the issue his integrity is.
hollabackgurl | May 31, 2011, 10:25 PM EDT
This article has generated the most vile and hateful comments I've ever read on this site which convinces me that 1) this is a desperate smear campaign that stirring homophobia to damage the candidate and 2) the people who consider themselves moral here are actually some of the most toxic people in the nation and 3) if you actually read the article and look at the man's career you can see this hateful garbage for what it is.
seanomelbourne | May 31, 2011, 07:47 PM EDT
Norris is a pseudo-intellectual who is not in touch with the majority of Irish people. His dislike of nationalism and his penchant for denigrating Pearse and his comrades is typical of his intellectual snobbery. Ireland needs a president who puts the people first,to be a cohesive force in these times. Norris fails miserably in this quest.
Springfield9 | May 31, 2011, 07:25 PM EDT
Mr. Norris ...... here's a wonderful piece of advice I recieved from a poltical office holder ..... "Never Trust Anyone Who Buys Ink By The Barrel"
Springfield9 | May 31, 2011, 07:21 PM EDT
Mr. Norris being gay is his business. As for the "explosive interview" it is just a paper tiger. Norris is right, Greek men in antiquity did take younger men under their wing. Greeks were not in the business of Southerly penetration though. The Romans were and you could rent children at the Coliseum. The Turks and North Africans are men you don't turn your back on. I'm not gay. With that siad, I can recognize a crock when I see it.
CaptainCon | May 31, 2011, 04:19 PM EDT
You do realise that this interview was commissioned by John Waters who was the editor of Magill magazine back in 2002? John Waters is a well-known religious wingnut. The 'journalist' in this case invited David Norris along to a profile interview- as far as I know the only one this former civil servant/film critic/restaurant critic has ever been asked to do and that she claims to have a tape of the interview which David Norris has challenged to air in its entirety? Needless to say it hasn't been aired. This is an attempted stitch up by an unqualified 'journalist' which has been aired for the second time since 2002 even though David Norris has issued statements rebutting the claims years ago and which is being resurrected because David Norris is 13/8 favourite in the betting for the Presidency? This 'journalist' also claimed David Norris went on holiday to Thailand with a certain emphasis- when it turns out he was part of an EU Committee investigating prostitution and child abuse? This is a stitch up and the way Irish Central has covered this is distinctly supportive of that stitch up.
katetipp33 | May 31, 2011, 03:59 PM EDT
I have met and listened to David Norris - he has defended childrens rights and womens rights for years before it was popular to do so. I do think he would make a good President.
GeorgeDillon | May 31, 2011, 03:46 PM EDT
This Jack guy is a fine representative of his country. Ignorant, bigoted, and foul-mouthed. I've met lots like him in Ireland! Maybe it's true that the smartest left Ireland and that the descendents of those who stayed are, shall we say, stupid.
JackFknTwist | May 31, 2011, 03:05 PM EDT
The funny thing about this site is that all the pseudo-Irish old timers come out of their closets with their outdated bigotry and rampant homophobia........what a commentary on the ex-pats......ha ha ha, the |Ancient Order of Bigots are all coming out of the closet !!! Ha ha ha.
JackFknTwist | May 31, 2011, 03:02 PM EDT
@moygannon: unfortunately the censors will not publish what I really say about you.......we don't need you inane comments on our country.
JackFknTwist | May 31, 2011, 03:01 PM EDT
@george dillon : Obviously being both completely ignorant and stupid is no deterrent to you airing your nonsense.
GeorgeDillon | May 31, 2011, 02:54 PM EDT
Looks like the dirty tricks departments of the big political parties over there suddenly realized this guy could win. I heard he came first in some poll there last week. I'd probably vote for him--anyone rather than the garrulous medicority who currently occupies the Presidential Residence in Phoenix park. What a jerk tht woman is. And the Irish are so contemptible that there apparently are suggestions that the Constitution be changed so as to allow Madame Verbal Flatulence another 7 years of idle luxury. That would make 21 years in all. The Irish--they're contemptible clowns--no one respects them.
JackFknTwist | May 31, 2011, 01:51 PM EDT
@clancy4unc: "at least he bonked females2.....!! What are you ? some sort of slime that crawled out of the gutter ? I'm sick of you stupid commentators who know nothing about Ireland, who only care for your own bigoted opinions and who bring my country's reputation into the gutter with your undisguised bigotry. I watched today |Dublin City Council workers erect flags along the Liffey , rainbow flags and flags with the words "Celebrate Diversity". This is the kind of Ireland we will have ; not the land of the religious bigots. David Norris is a hero , the best candidate and will get my vote.
mcdolan | May 31, 2011, 01:05 PM EDT
Why don't you be even-handed and refer to the other candidates as female if you insist on labelling people. David Norris is the best candidate for the Presidency and his being gay has nothing to do with it. This is a smear campaign because he is the frontrunner. And, YES, I would be delighted to have him babysit my children!
solyeant | May 31, 2011, 12:04 PM EDT
Just the same as a torpedo and conceptually we need go no further unless smeer is the object . The future will be a strange place where even if anyone putting themselves forward for any post is shown to have "borrowed" a pencil from the office grand theft larceny will be the extent of their crime if slander in all its forms exists as a political weapon we must develop our own political guidelines to serarate crap from more crap. The politics of life means just that , experience and acute understanding isn't gained in a lacture hall or a public house and smear the orator with your trivial prejudice and democracy is dead. Get a life and watch the spinners do their dirty work which could be even said of this medium alas
bluetit | May 31, 2011, 11:39 AM EDT
Your story says "Poltics.ie which carried the original Magill story had over 21,000 comments within 24 hours, the overwhelming majority of them negative." I could see something like a thousand not twenty thousand comments and without ploughing through even that number I did not see many that were critical. What he said was pretty unremarkable although remarks of a similar nature on rape by UK Minister of Justice, Kenneth Clarke, last week created a brief flurry of rage and resignation calls. Clarke said the apparently unsayable, that some rapes were worse than others.
PhlutiePhan | May 31, 2011, 11:30 AM EDT
With the deepest respect for Helen Lucey Burke for bringing this to the attention of Irishmen (and women) everywhere.
ohrightyeah | May 31, 2011, 10:53 AM EDT
Look at Norris's record. He has traveled the world campaigning against the abuse of children. This is a smear attempt pure and simple. I think it's disgraceful. Helen Lucy Burke misrepresented him ten years ago, he had to go on every media outlet to defend his name and rebuke the story. He did that, and has been elected every time since then. Now out of nowhere, she drags up her misrepresentations again. I don't think it will work. Norris has too much integrity. He's a cut above your average politician. I suspect he has very few skeletons in his closet, and if this is the kind of crap that they will have to resort to, I think it shows they are really worried that he is going to win easily. I hope he does. It would send a great signal to the world that Ireland is finally out from under the yoke of an oppressive catholic oligarchy. (By the way, if you are looking for actual paedophiles, that's a better place to start than Norris!)
katetipp33 | May 31, 2011, 10:52 AM EDT
Antoman I listened to David norris this morning defending his words and he says they were taken out of context that they were discussing the Romans or Plato of some such when it came to the loving relationship with an older man. Anyway Helen Lucey Bourke is a bit of ball breaker whose career is not doing to well
John5319 | May 31, 2011, 10:37 AM EDT
Hypothetical conversation or not, to infer that sex with minors in a "lovingly" way, and "I think that would be lovely; I would have enjoyed that". ... is Evil and sick. Yet he jumps further into the swamp by saying "The law in this sphere should take in to account consent RATHER THAN age". So he favors a 10 year old Boy's consent, but then concluded that in the case of girls a case could be made for a ban? Yes Ireland you have a morally weak mind running for President, and even weaker ones supporting him. As one commented on Sarah Palin "Republican voters do tend to favor the intellectually challenged", and so logically what would we call the kind of people that support this man?? "Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart"-2 Timothy 2:22 . . . This man has Evil intent and deceives the "ignorant masses" of Socialism.
MACDONALDBANK | May 31, 2011, 10:36 AM EDT
It is a sometimes rare occurrence to fall in Love and to hold that person in your heart and be loved in return ... it is something that should be celebrated! If it is between two guys or girls all the better. It takes even more courage to defend that LOVE! I am the son of a catholic father who never went to church and a protestant mother who took us to church and Sunday school. Onward christian soldiers; I think not. Such absolute drivel. To be manipulated by a santa claus; an easter bunny and worst of all a bogus cross? It is written; so therefore it shall be? We are the chosen people? Such a wicked fantasy. To see the religious lunatics manipulate government and our lives is shameful. According to biblical law, a father can sell his daughter as a slave.
MACDONALDBANK | May 31, 2011, 10:33 AM EDT
There is no scientific evidence to prove any of the cross related bogus elements of christianity. Our early human ancestors; on this earth … go back more than 6 million years … 5,996,000 years before the Greeks, Romans and the Jews. Christianity is basically a 2011 year old fictional cult. In the year 300 AD when Emperor Constantine, who to some was the first pope; went on to fabricate & market Christianity - a fantasy - which turned out to be one of the most hateful & evil concoctions ever perpetrated on the world. The evil writings in Leviticus 18:22 … against gays – depict: “P” … “priestly rules” & expanded by the pope; homophobes and religious frauds … to attack the gay community and never meant to apply to the public -- but to priests. Leviticus was written long after Moses -- 600BC. The pope and churches fully aware that Leviticus 18:22 applies to priests only … refuse to remove this stigma … maliciously persecuting gays. Kids bullied into suicide …! Being black or left-handed or being gay is just as natural. If the black community or women had it written that they should be put to death; how would they like that? Churches are committing hate crimes and more succinctly a violent criminal offence against a federally protected minority namely the gay community. It is actually a bigger moment in history … gays standing up for equality … soldiers being discharged are indeed exposing something far greater ... the realization that there is something far more evil at work -- hateful religion which should be discharged from society -- period.
MACDONALDBANK | May 31, 2011, 10:31 AM EDT
David gets our vote! Einstein stated in a letter recently auctioned that the bible was a collection of primitive legends. He said believing in God was childish and he as a Jew is no different than another person and are not chosen by God.
antoman | May 31, 2011, 10:23 AM EDT
Game over for David Norris..NEXT!
antoman | May 31, 2011, 10:23 AM EDT
"Now again, this is not something that appeals to me, although when I was younger it would most certainly have appealed to me in the sense that I would have greatly relished the prospect of an older, attractive, mature man taking me under his wing, lovingly introducing me to sexual realities, and treating me with affection and teaching me about life - yes, I think that would be lovely; I would have enjoyed that."..David Norris.Reading this paragraph seems to suggest that his fantasy of being befriended and buggered by an older man are the same actions he would take were he left alone in the company of a child.
jamthecat | May 31, 2011, 10:11 AM EDT
I'm conflicted about this. A mature person having sex with anyone under legal age is wrong. Period. I don't care if it's a man with an adolescent girl or boy, or a woman with either. And the way Norris posed his responses in that interview is discomforting, at best. That said -- I also find it disturbing that no one cared about these comments until it looked like he was going to become the Irish President. That strongly indicates a deliberate attempt to use lies, misquotes and homophobia to derail his candidacy, and makes me seriously question people's claims about what he actually said. If Helen Lucy Burke taped the interview, she should release those tapes so we can hear the full conversation. If she didn't tape them, I wonder why she's just now saying, nine years on, that she had problems with his answers?
thomasbyrne | May 31, 2011, 10:06 AM EDT
gross
olovely | May 31, 2011, 09:12 AM EDT
Clearly Fine Gael have just realized he's going to win.
sirpeter | May 31, 2011, 08:03 AM EDT
It was taken out of context.It was a hypothetical, intellectual conversation.Of course the thick stupid would take a conversation like that the wrong way.They always do. That's what you get David Norris for having a intellectual conversation and talking to the media.