80 Comments

• themurphia | Aug 17, 2011, 04:49 PM EDT

  Single Donald...I could care less what you think if that is not an oxymoron...maybe just moron...eiriamach I agree...

• SingleDonald | Aug 16, 2011, 11:06 PM EDT

  eiramach, Lesson irrelevant! Lighten up, feminist!! Really, a week has past, since this thread opened. If the 3 of us keep it up, IC may delete our posts, and warn us to know when to stop!

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 06:55 PM EDT

  Parallel terms: woman -- man; boy --girl; gal -- guy; female -- male. "Men" and "man" are generic only for all males, not males and females; "women" and "woman" are generic for all females. "Humanity" and a few other words include both females and males. That's the lesson for today-- easy enough, just common sense, isn't it, SingleDonald?

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 06:44 PM EDT

  SingleDonald, I wince when I hear a man refer to a woman as "girl," and I want to scream when women use the term to refer to themselves!

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 06:41 PM EDT

  themurphia, that is how women survive in the professions. Truth is, we're better than the men and we know it. Maybe it's because we come up the hard way, and maybe we're just naturally better! (How's that for chauvinism?) In tough spots we survive because the men (still mostly men!) with power know we are good at what we do, so they're afraid to mess with us. There are women who "sleep their way to the top" or seduce their students or subordinates for ego boosts. Women who are good at what they do don't need that ego tripping. And I suspect that more men are sexual harassers because they do need the ego trip.

• SingleDonald | Aug 16, 2011, 06:34 PM EDT

  themurphia, I almost forgot. Yes, I would be interested in helping all students, male, as well as female.

• SingleDonald | Aug 16, 2011, 06:32 PM EDT

  themurphia,Oh, come now! Of course Germaine Greer and friends were admiring the boy, because of his sexuality/sensuality!If what you say is true, they could have been viewing an 18 year old girl! Leonardo DaVinci, incidentally, was gay. Some think that the Mona Lisa was a feminine manifestation of himself!! The term lady, is a proper reference to the female gender, one which most non feminists would readily accept. I also use "girl", along with "woman",and "gal", for women, even baby boomers. Sensible women realize that "girl", used in the generic sense, denotes youth & femininity, traits which are apparently scorned by feminists. I am okay with men being called the "guys", or even the "boys". I think your kind need to get with the program, and stop being so paranoid over harmless refrences! I never use the 5-letter "b" word, or the 4-letter "c" word. Use of THOSE should get my face slapped, but not "lady", "gal", or "girl", used in a positive, upbeat sense.

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 06:29 PM EDT

  SingleDonald, did Greer produce a drawing for the art class? I won't believe it was just a gawking session! An artist is likely to do her best work when inspired by beauty. Where's that model now, when I could use some inspiration? I'm happy to know that Timothy Leary went home to outer space in the end. Surely that's where he came from! I like the old Irish custom of taking the body back to the parish where the person was born.

• themurphia | Aug 16, 2011, 06:26 PM EDT

  I prefer 'professional'...I expect no more from others that I do from myself...If women want to be taken seriously then they need to behave accordingly and stop asking for special treatment...It's a jungle out there...!The teachers I respected most were the ones who expected the most from me...and yes my students achieved better than average results because I didn't cut them any slack...!

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 06:14 PM EDT

  Yeah, themurphia, sometimes I too think it's all an illusion, being a woman, a teacher, an American-- it's all posturing. I'm an imposter, and aren't we all? I envy your tough approach! In a crunch, when students make serious attempts to manipulate, that's what I do also, and while I'll do all I can to avoid a power play, I've not been known to lose one once I have no choice about it, as several admins have learned. BTW: to survive in the profession in the States, where students exercise power in course evaluations, it's necessary that students respect you and not dislike you, so I temper the academic demands with understanding. I'll bet you are a highly respected teacher and more effective than most!

• themurphia | Aug 16, 2011, 04:44 PM EDT

  Would the real eiriamach please stand up...I do not believe you are an American a woman or a teacher...!

• themurphia | Aug 16, 2011, 03:45 PM EDT

  eiriamach:Too soft...!girls have to get tough...!We know that to be considered half as good women have to work twice as hard...!Make them work...they are manipulative little minxes...another thing I share with GG...she says although she is a Feminist she doesn't like women very much I know what she means...There is a difference between aesthetic appreciation of the nude form...I have La Greer's book on the Male Nude...Leonardo also appreciated the nude male torso...and drew some of the most beautiful representations of the same...It is not the same as sexual attraction...Would you be interested in a student if you were not attracted...?I doubt it...!I think SG is missing you...Any one who refers to women as 'ladies' needs to get with the programme...

• SingleDonald | Aug 16, 2011, 03:29 PM EDT

  You ladies may be interested to know that I recently saw a clip on Germaine Greer. She, and other older women, were enjoying a young, nude male model, for an art class. She admitted that she and her friends were admiring his masculine features, which were just short of full adulthood. He was 18. So long as the young man wanted this, I see nothing wrong with the female audience being pleasured. After all, there is nothing wrong with women past a certain age enjoying a young male, so long as he consents, and is of legal age. eiramach, Yes, I agree with your latest take on the Oedipus Complex, but with a different slant. If I was a college instructor, I'd be happy to let the students call me ,"Donald", and be willing to see some socially, after school. I feel that would be an excellent way to have them, "be free from the overweening attachment to the dead hand of the past.."! BTW, academia, I understand, lags way behind the rest of society, concerning 1st name usage. Baby boomers on down generally accept the informal approach. I would insist in addressing a professor close to me in age, or younger, as, "Dr. Timothy", rather than , "Dr. Leary", unless he/she agreed to address me on a "Mr." basis. Never mind the far out charachter, I used as an example. Did you know that the LSD advocate was cremated, and his ashes flown into outer space, after he died?

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 03:13 PM EDT

  I'll look for that program. Greer was in her glory during the so-called 'sexual revolution,' when I was young. The truth is, I feel sorry for my students because, relative to my generation ('between the pill and AIDS'), they have more difficulty in relationships. They generally suffer more from rules and fears of harmful consequences, so it's understandable that they are tempted to cross the line with teachers. It often happens that a student who struggled to get a "C" in my class (and who handed in late assignments that left me exhausted at end of term) tells me, "I really learned a lot in your class!" I know that the little she learned is still Jello in her brain, and if I took points off for late assignments, she would have a "D." She gets the "C" because I believe that, as she moves on, she will continue to develop what she learned. What she really means by "learned a lot" is that she enjoyed the class discussions, developed thinking, reading, writing skills, and gleaned some ideas to work with in the real world. That's education. When a young man makes sexual overtures, I treat it as flirting if it is not too blunt an attempt to bribe me for a better grade. Flirting is a transient behavior that I can deal with light-heartedly while still sending the message that I expect him to work for a respectable grade. Colleagues who receive fewer late assignments because, as 'teacher-in-charge' types, they enforce strict rules about due dates, are less exhausted at semester's end, but I know their class discussions do not result in as much growth. It's a trade-off that works for me.

• themurphia | Aug 16, 2011, 02:47 PM EDT

  Germaine Greer was English Prof at Warwick...I would have loved to have attended her classes on Feminism and Literature...I tried to change courses when I discovered she was teaching there...Warwick accepted me but my Alma Mater would not release me from my contract...However they did run a course called Analysis of Literary Sources by an American lecturer which I loved...I am constsntly amazed by the wisdom of my elders..now that I am less arrogant and not young enough to think I know everything...!I didn't know my father's family but my mother's family are very important to me...She would have loved that description of her father...!I was delighted to chance upon the programme last night it was so well researched and produced you might be able to catch it on the web...I think it's showing for a few more days...As I said I am a swotty geek...!However much I admire GG I doubt I would get in the tub with her...I am a repressed Catholic after all and it sort of brings us back on topic about appropriate behaviour...!

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 02:16 PM EDT

  Yes, themurphia, I agree-- "emasculated" must be the right word. Q. Elizabeth 1st outdid the males in her court for macho. Every successful politician is descended from Q. Liz in being willing to use rhetoric, quite cynically if necessary, to accomplish political goals. And she had all the trappings of pomp and regal ceremony to impress the heck out of her troops and other subjects. It's interesting to learn that your grandfather was Socrates! Or at least that he knew Plato's approach to knowledge from the Socratic dialogues! That's all grand info. I'm enjoying it immensely. I once chatted with Germaine Greer, when I was 8 months pregnant. I still celebrate the spirit of the woman: she wanted a group of us to hop into the Jacuzzi naked with her. The whole 'Irish mafia' of us feminists did so except me. "Maybe next time!" I said. Oh she could quote Shakespeare, Queen Liz, the humanists, any Renaissance figure even after X number of drinks and in 104-degree Fahrenheit swirling water! Go raibh míle maith agat for reminding me of all that!

• themurphia | Aug 16, 2011, 01:30 PM EDT

  eiriamach: Moving away slightly from the instant topic...I caught a programme about the Renaissance when I got home last night...by some lucky couincidence it just happened to be about the education of women...and the influence of Margaret More in particular and the part it played in the education of the young Bess Tudor onwards...the two quotations the narrator whose name escapes me used...were Elizabeths speech to the troops at Tilbury..although hearing it read as a piece of prose rather than as a speech completely emasculated it if that is the right word...the other Shakespeare's quotation 'All the worlds a stage'...It was also interesting on the subject of rhetoric as an intellectual conceit...perhaps I should adopt a more rhetorical approach and feign false modesty rather than proclaiming my assets so vociferously...Would seem to fly in the face of feminism...!Just thought you'd be interested in view of previous 'conversation'...Isn't it wonderfuk that there is always more to learn...my grandfather used to say 'they don't know enough to know they know nothing'...how right he was...!I see someone is railing against Germaine Greer in the IT...like she's a modern day feminist...!A little learning etc...Must be terrible to have to rely on the learning of others for your opinions..!

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 10:03 AM EDT

  Reading over what I wrote below, I realize that some people would accuse me of teaching liberal ideology. I don't do that although my students usually know what my position is on any issue we discuss. They also see that I can be a 'devil's advocate' for positions I oppose. Part of being able to construct a good argument is fully grasping and dealing fairly with the arguments on the opposing side. We call it "liberal arts," but it is really "liberating." I do not think that most of my students change their politics in my class, but they do develop critical thinking skills, and to paraphrase John the Evangelist, "You shall have the skills of critical thinking, and those skills shall set you free." They are young adults, but young adults who keep reverting to childhood. We work on showing them they can handle adulthood! Teaching IS a kind of parenting, with the goal of producing a capable adult who can find that tenuous equilibrium between instinctual gratification (pleasure) and sacrifice (work) that we need from citizens of a free society. (Now I guess I sound rather idealistic, but that's better than ideological, for sure.)

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 09:35 AM EDT

  I completely agree with this: "As far as male teachers are concerned I think they regard hitting on students as a perk of the job...I just find the whole 'sexual politics' thing exhausting and frustrating that we are still dealing with it in the second decade of 21st Century...!" That has been my experience too. It is about power, right, and those who have it will not willingly part with it. But it is also about freedom. Students do not learn anything of importance outside of an atmosphere of freedom. If the student-teacher interaction is too cluttered up and choking with rules, then students will not open their minds to new ideas and begin the process of discarding the dysfunctional past (critical thinking). Teachers should role model a rational approach to human relationships and social/ political issues. There's research to show that students 'learn' behaviors from their teachers even more than they learn information and intellectual skills in the classroom. SingleDonald, many people go through life re-erecting authority figures for themselves continuously in order to escape the terror of making decisions for themselves (exercising their freedom). Age has little to do with this unresolved Oedipal need; as themurphia says, it's about power. An important goal of education is to produce autonomous individuals-- morally, intellectually, and psychologically able to provide for their own needs. Showing them what it would be like to be free from their overweening attachment to the 'dead hand of the past' and their need to identify with 'big daddy' at the helm is part of a vigorous and healthy life of the mind.

• SingleDonald | Aug 15, 2011, 07:04 PM EDT

  eiramach & themurphia, Are you both college instructors/professors? If so, what do you teach? I assure you both, I too am against bona fide sexual harassment. I just don't believe administrators should be so paternalistic, in monitoring their employees' off hours associations! No, I would never look at "hitting on female students" as a perk of the job. If, however, there was someone who I really appreciated, who was 21, or over, and on solid academic ground (not on probation), I might consider seeing her after class, at a restaurant, movie theater, bowling alley, etc. So long as she willingly accompanied me, that would be between me and her, not the administration! I would be paid a salary to teach, not to refrain from after school contact, with anybody, so long as it would be consensual. I know that there IS dating between female faculty & male students, even though you both choose not to do so. Again, I refute the Oedipal thing by reminding you that some instructors are only slightly older than the students. They may even be the same age as, or younger than graduate students. The Oedipus Complex is a taboo, but it literally means a guy getting intimate with his own mother (or, Electra Complex-a girl getting intimate with her father). An older man/woman, who is not related to the younger student, doesn't satisfy the taboo! Some feminists want people to believe this, so as to demonize an inter age relationship. Intelligent people ignore this smear campaign. I'm not saying that either of you lack intelligence; after all, eiramach DID support my concept of consensual dating, a few E-Mails back. I just wish you wouldn't be so dependant on the "Oedipus/Electra Complex", as it, by your own admission, is way too complex! Remember, we are dealing with young adults, in college, not little children!

• themurphia | Aug 15, 2011, 06:34 PM EDT

  eiriamach:I think the teacher/student role is analgous with parent/child if/when the student behaves childishly i.e. pushing the boundaries...then it's best to set them from the outset...I would prefer not to have to deal with 'sexual harasssment'...e.g. coming on to your tutor in the teaching situation particularly when you are put on the spot and the student has a captive audience...It's about power...testing the boundaries to see how far they can go...If young males are going to behave like this in School then they are likely to do so in work or in other situations...Also it's not fair on students who behave like 'adults' and want to learn...to have their lecture time taken up with extraneous issues...It's probably something that should be dealt with in Freshers week/the Educational contract rather than being left to individual tutors but I like to reinforce it on my courses....As far as male teachers are concerned I think they regard hitting on students asa perk of the job...I just find the whole 'sexual politics' thing exhausting and frustrating that we are still dealing with it in the second decade of 21st Century...!

• eiriamach | Aug 15, 2011, 06:01 PM EDT

  Oh yeah, and, SingleDonald, those guys were looking for better grades. Pardon my turning Freudian again, but a good grade is often a symbol of parental approval; to a student in an Oedipal state, it means that Mama/Papa loves him (or her). But as mentioned earlier, that's complicated!

• eiriamach | Aug 15, 2011, 05:54 PM EDT

  I'm no fan of political correctness, SingleDonald. I'm fierce against censorship, for example. But themurphia is right about professional distance. I do not like to turn police officer either, so I rarely report students just for weird behavior. I'd have to be concerned about a possible suicide or violence against others before I brought my concern to administrators. In the best of all possible worlds, we would not need administrative PC rules against imprudent behavior by teachers. We'd all just act as smart as our students think we are!

• SingleDonald | Aug 15, 2011, 12:08 PM EDT

  themurphia, I am not "getting off, on this conversation", nor do I have issues, concerning older women. I merely wish, as does the Dankprofessor, Barry Dank, to emphasize individual rights, over "political correctness"! BTW, I have never taught anywhere, and have not attended college in quite some time. Yet, I must speak out on issues like this. I'm also including the workplace, as well as academia. True, very few employers seek to enforce "rules" of this nature. Yet, the few who do need to be put in their places. I can't stand an administrator acting like surrogate mommy, or daddy, by attempting to "dictate" who people may and may not date, after school/work. To paraphrase Founding Father, Patrick Henry, those who openly defy any "dating bans" should proclaim, "If this be insubordination, let's make the most of it!!"

• themurphia | Aug 15, 2011, 06:55 AM EDT

  Students can be very manipulative and the best advice in any situation is to keep a 'professional' distance...They are not your friends they are not your kids and they are not your colleagues they are your students it's a contractual relationship that lasts for the duration of the teaching session...Lecturere/tutors/mentor need to set clear ground rules about the nature of the relationship and not collude in inappropriate language/behaviour... Students should not be hitting on their teachers particularly not in the classroom situation...It seems to me the example you cite was about power as much as sexual attraction...There is also a hidden agenda that 'older women' are gagging for it and what they need most in their lives is a young stud...as if...!If a student behaved like that in one of my classes I'd report it to the Dean and have it recorded on his references...I resisted the temptation for a schoolboy joke there...Otherwise I think you leave yourself vulnerable to gossip and innunedo... Universities are very gossipy places little academic villages where everybody knows and wants to know everyone else's business...From what SD says I think he has issues about older women...perhaps that's why he's 'Single'..!I aslo think he's getting off on this conversation...!

• SingleDonald | Aug 14, 2011, 09:41 PM EDT

  eiramach, Of course I knew you were only kidding, with the..."lotta money" comment! I do think that the majority of these guys were sincere in their flattery, and were not looking for better grades. You should take them as compliments, even if you don't want to date these guys! Back to the "Oedipal dynamic"; I think we are beating a complicated issue to death. There is NOTHING WRONG with an unmarried baby boomer man or woman going out with someone much younger than them, so long as they are adults (21 in my case)! My ideal age range is 30-45; I hope you don't have a problem with that! I would go younger, though, or older. In fact, there are many girls I liked, back in the day, who I would STILL love to go out with, like high school & grade school mates. Problem is, they are not available-usually married, or keeping steady company. In recent years, we see more of the "older woman-younger man" relationships. Like inter racial dating, inter generational dating should be met with at least tolerance, and preferably, acceptance. Assigning the "oedipal taboo" to these relationships is absurd! I'm not saying this is your motivation, but I suspect that SOME baby boomer single/widowed/divorced women get upset about, and criticize these relationships, because they want to trivialize and possibly reduce their competition! It won't work; individual rights should always trump "political correctness", as I have previously said!

• eiriamach | Aug 14, 2011, 05:08 PM EDT

  When I wrote "a lotta money instead of a good time" I meant in exchange for a passing grade or a good grade. Flattery is no substitute for learning what they need to learn, but some students do try to "buy" their grades in the way I described.

• eiriamach | Aug 14, 2011, 04:48 PM EDT

  SingleDonald, the women in the example I described took their cases up the channels but to no avail. My advice to anyone in that situation is to get the teacher to repeat and clarify the "spend the night" comment and make a digital or tape recording of the overture. The deans and committees that handle harassment complaints might refuse to hear it, but by sending copies to the offender's colleagues, admins, board members, and local newspapers, a victim can drive an offender out of the profession. SingleDonald, you're wrong about the Oedipal dynamic between students and teachers being 'rubbish.' It is very real in my experience and that of my colleagues, although as themurphia writes, it's complicated. From my mid-20s right through last semester, I've had occasional male students declare, once with a whole class as witnesses, that they thought I was beautiful and sexy and that they loved me-- LOL! -- I'm old enough to be their grandmother. Once, a star basketball player wanted to show me what a 'really great date' he could be. I hope those young men managed to work through their seriously unresolved Oedipal issues, but I could help them do that only as a teacher, not as their hot mama. I've also mentored several young men who managed to keep their churning hormones under control while we had some grand discussions. Now, if some guy offered me a lotta money instead of a good time, well. . . . Nah! Not even then! Instructors with ego issues manipulate the Oedipal dynamic in their students. I understand how it happens, but it shouldn't happen, not ever.

• themurphia | Aug 14, 2011, 06:24 AM EDT

  I always think there is something suspect about teachers who want to 'associate' with their students...I found it creepy as a student and as a lecturer/tutor...the last people I wanted to see socially work were my students... Talking of creepy things I wastched a tribute to Lucien Freud rlast night...his grandfather would definitely have had something to say about his sub conscious and paintings of his daughters...just a little disturbing...Considering my father wouldn't allow us to sit around in nightwear...!I think there is something in the Freudian idea of the parent being the first love which the child then replicates not with the actual parent but in the choice of partner...I know I am attracted to men who resemble my father in looks and personality...he was a bit of a looker...He was also the person I most wanted to please/impress but I was totally not his ideal type of 'woman' that was my sister who not surprisingly was more like my mother whereas I am more like him in personality...Oooo it's all very complicated..!

• SingleDonald | Aug 13, 2011, 03:39 PM EDT

  eiramach,Even if the professor was joking, this was not a laughing matter. The female students should have then gone to the department chairman, and requested either a grade increase, or the ability to take a different quiz, of the same difficulty. However, as ill advised as his comment was, he should not have been fired, over this. There is no indication that he was serious, as he didn't follow through with his supposed desire. Maybe it is better to wait until the class is over, but I can't accept administrative meddling into the private, after school associations of their employees! The "Oedipal Attachment" you cite is sheer rubbish! 1) The professor is NOT their father or brother, so no "incest" is taking place, and 2) Some of the instructors are only a few years older than the students. It's truly unfortunate that some of these guys act like "arrogant, ego-tripping expletetive deleted". However, if the female students were willing to MARRY, rather than merely engage in a quick fling with them, they must have had some redeeming features!

• eiriamach | Aug 13, 2011, 12:05 PM EDT

  Two different women who do not know other receive failing grades on their quizzes from the same male professor. Each woman checks on her grade by comparing her quizzes to those of her male classmates, and she finds that the professor has unfairly given her a "D" or "F" for the same quality work that the male students got "B" or "C" for. Each woman separately tells me that when she went to consult with the professor who treated her unfairly, he said to each of them, "The only way you're going to pass this course is to spend the night with me." And then he laughed. And when the women filed discrimination complaints against him, he claimed that he was only joking and that the women couldn't keep up in his class. He got away with it! He's probably still doing it! Many cases are similar to this one. Most often, the faculty who abuse their authority in this way are male. I have no objection to teachers dating their ex-students who have graduated or at least are not enrolled in courses taught by the teachers they're dating, but too many teachers know how to abuse their own authority and the trust that students place in their integrity. Or they manipulate a student's Oedipal attachment to the teacher. SingleDonald is right that much student-teacher 'dating' takes place. I've known several women, poor souls, who ended up married to their teachers, men who couldn't get one of their female colleagues to give them a second glance because they were such arrogant, ego-tripping [expletive deleted].

• SingleDonald | Aug 13, 2011, 03:46 AM EDT

  kathy56, I was not advocating adult women sleeping with underage boys. I was merely saying that penalties for this kind of thing should take into account the impact the affair had, on the older minor. Thanks for backing me on consensual dating, among adults, after work. themurphia, I too find what you described as deplorable. However, individual rights of privacy & free association, after work, should always be respected. So long as the college instructor was treating all students fairly, he/she should not be subject to a witch hunt, for merely socializing with students. What about a male professor going for a drink, with his 21 plus male students, or playing table tennis with them. Should THIS be subject to administrative meddling?

• kathy56 | Aug 12, 2011, 08:41 PM EDT

  sorry for the spelling,stupid cursor.

• kathy56 | Aug 12, 2011, 08:40 PM EDT

  @SINGLEDONALD...YOU ARE AN ADULT,totally different scenario. If you want to date an adult,go ahead..but this is a 16yr old and no ADULT has a right to coierce him into sex...he is too young to have sex with this woman,bot to mention she is his teacher..I am a parent of a teenage boy,and I woukd go bullistic if I found out this woman betrayed my tust and had sex with my son..the fact that he revealed it to his mother shows he was having trouble with the situation...believe no teen boy wants to confide in his mom unless he was having trouble dealing with it...as for unions there was a teacher convicted of raping/having sex with a minor and in prison still receiving a paycheck from her job,and the union supported it....

• kathy56 | Aug 12, 2011, 08:25 PM EDT

  gawd..what is happening..perverts are running rampant and I guess the classroom is the perfect place,but leave it to the teachers union to not allow this perve to be fired !

• themurphia | Aug 12, 2011, 01:12 PM EDT

  I think there should be a prohibition on teacher/student relationships...I have witnessed this at first hand and believe it is an unhealthy and an abuse of power/position...I have seen less bright students use these relationships to gain better grades and unscrupulous lecturers...usually married men...seek out these students because they know they can take advantage of them more easily...I'm trying to remember the novel on this subject...might be the 'History Man' and then there's 'Wilt'(!) etc...there were alot of novels about predatory professors and nubile undergraduates written in the '70's...Of course this can backfire spectacularly on either or both parties...In a very competitive course some students are prepared to do anything to make the grade...I think it should be grounds for summary dismissal if a lecturer abuses their power in this way particularly if the lecturer is involved in assessing that students grades...Once the academic relationship is over then it doesn't matter...they can see who they like...Perhaps that makes me a 'radical feminist' so be it...I've been called worse...and I'd rather be described as such than some 'Stepford/Surrendered Wife...or any other sort of 'wife' for that matter...!

• SingleDonald | Aug 12, 2011, 02:43 AM EDT

  themurphia, The book was "The Lecherous Professor", co-authored by Billie Wright Dzeich & Linda Weiner. It has a highly sexist cartoon caricature on its cover, of a professor with a wolf's head, wearing a dinner jacket. It came out in 1984, and was responsible for many U.S. colleges passing "dating bans". These "rules" not only "prohibit" liasons between professors & adult students. Some schools have extended them to dorm proctors dating fellow students on their floor!!! To be honest, they are seldom enforced, unless true sexual harassment takes place. Yes, students tell me that dating of this kind DOES take place. BTW, I remembered the book & one of its authors, as I was shutting down my computer, following my last post. I was going out, so the post had to wait, until now.

• Mamo1951 | Aug 11, 2011, 10:11 PM EDT

  IrishCentral, who are you catering to with these miserable stories? Can you not find any stories that uplift our race? Did anything good or decent happen in the world of Irish America this week? What is the point in publishing this particulr story? How about a little balance?

• SingleDonald | Aug 11, 2011, 07:21 PM EDT

  eiramach, That song is indeeed on You Tube; I saved it as a favorite. themurphia, I have read of feminists, no one of note, who have advocated "dating prohibtions", in the workplace.Radical feminists are those who feel that it is all the mens' fault, and want to protect women from themselves, even if it means infantilizing them (and some men)with paternalistic "rules". There are many feminist texts out there, regarding this. While I can't name a specific one, some college administrators/corporate leaders have assumed the roles of surrogate mommy & daddy, in order to prevent sexual harassment. Now, we all should know that sexual harassment is either "quid pro quo", or creating a hostile environment. It does NOT involve consensual dating, after work, or school (college). If I can find some specific writers/articles concerning this, I will report them here. I praise Professor Barry Dank. He is a retired English professor from Californis, who now lives in Arizona. He created the group, "Sexual Consent on Campus", which I joined. It's all about having individual rights trump "political correctness!

• themurphia | Aug 11, 2011, 02:12 PM EDT

  How can feminism be 'paternalism'...what are you on about...? What is your definition of a radical/moderate feminist..?Please name one who says 'feminists want to assume the role of mommy'...Please refer me to one radical or moderate 'feminist'text that states anything so preposterous...? What 'feminists' have you read...?

• eiriamach | Aug 11, 2011, 01:17 PM EDT

  Certainly I agree with you, SingleDonald. It's fun to play with fantasies in an intimate relationship in which there is mutual trust. It's the unconscious fantasies, desires, impulses that pose a danger. These are the desires we repress because they would generate guilt or psychological trauma of some kind. But libidinal desires, well, anyone who has ever been in love knows that we are very consciously aware of many such, the agony and the ecstasy! I vaguely recall the song you mention. If it's on You Tube, I'll find it and listen.

• SingleDonald | Aug 11, 2011, 11:30 AM EDT

  eiriamach,Thanks for the clarification! I thought you implied the notion that "there can be no true consent, to dating, when a difference in power/status exists between two people". I have been arguing against this point for years, and feel that even moderate feminists would agree with me. It is the radical fringe who wish to assume the role of surrogate "mommy", and tell their underlings, men, as well as women, who they may & may not go out with, after work/school. This is paternalism at its worst! Concerning Oedipus, it is an Electra Complex, when girls desire intimacy with their dads. Both complexes are a turn off, to me, and to most people. You might be interested in my reaction to an old Rogers & Hammerstein movie, State Fair (1945). Two attractive actresses are featured, Jeanne Crain & Vivian Blaine. I would have preferred Vivian, had I been around then. Jeanne is very attractive, but bears a slight resemblance to my mom, in pictures I have seen of her, in that era. Therefore, my choice would have been Vivian Blaine! BTW, if you ever see tha movie, take note of the duet sung by Vivian with Dick Haymes, her would be lover. "Isn't it Kind of Fun" is such a heart warming song, imagining this and that, and acknowledging that it is fantasy. The last line, though, goes, "But haven't you got a hunch, that this is the real McCoy, and all the things we tell each other are true?" Yes, I would like to have been Dick Haymes, if I was around, in 1945!

• themurphia | Aug 11, 2011, 06:00 AM EDT

  Seeing a woman Specialist means you are less likely to see comments such as 'TUBE' on your notes...If I feel uncomfortable about an exam/procedure I always ask why it is necessary...I wouldn't have had the confidence to do that when I was younger...If I go to the doctor about an earache I question why it is necessary to take my top off so the doctor can examine my chest...Some of my women friends have told me very creepy stories about male practitioners...and some funny ones...!I want out with a hospital doctor and socialised with medics at one time and I have to say they were great fun although they smoke and drink to much...Some of course think they are a superior race...Here's my doctor joke...which you may have already heard it's not in the first flush of youth...Q:What is the difference between God and a doctor..?A:God doesn't think he's a doctor..!hohoho

• eiriamach | Aug 10, 2011, 03:39 PM EDT

  themurphia, when I was living in Ireland, I visited a female gynecologist. She didn't know much and sent me to a male specialist. He didn't know much about anything except pregnancy (not my problem), and he was a sexist sh*t who shouldn't be let near any woman. That experience taught me not to mind every little pain, because MDs can be really big pains. (I did finally see a good male MD and all the tests checked out, so all for nothing. Ya live & learn.)

• themurphia | Aug 10, 2011, 03:12 PM EDT

  aaghhhh shoulda been 'It's not as if you're going to see them...!

• themurphia | Aug 10, 2011, 03:11 PM EDT

  That's the way 'the system' works...didn't used to have any say...now I state that I would 'prefer' a woman doctor but there are fewer women consultants so if it's an emergency then I'd rather be seen sooner than later regardless of gender although it is less intimidating to see a woman...It's as if you're going to going to see them again and anyway the logistics are such that once the exam is underway it doesn't really matter...He was a bit taken surprise by my response...!

• eiriamach | Aug 10, 2011, 02:23 PM EDT

  themurphia, OK, so he didn't get it entirely right during his lifetime. It wasn't until Anna Freud, Sigmund's daughter, took up the work of psychoanalytic theory that it became clear that the Oedipal conflict is about securing power and that it works pretty much the same for women as for men. Being male, Freud sometimes confused the symbolic with the physiological, so his own theory of castration fear could lead him into thinking that women could not possibly suffer from the same neurotic drives as men. Anna and other students of Freud were able to think it through in purely symbolic terms, which is how it works in the psyche. Women need to achieve "power" as much as men, we fear its loss as much as men, and we are as likely to identify with powerful leaders as men--all these needs have their pitfalls. So why would you go to a male gynecologist, anyway?

• themurphia | Aug 10, 2011, 02:00 PM EDT

  eiriamach...look it up!'Freud wrote about what women want'...That's like when the male gynaecologist says this won't hurt...and as I replied says you!

• eiriamach | Aug 10, 2011, 01:31 PM EDT

  SingleDonald, I drew a connection between Oedipal fantasies and our need for authority figures, but I'd never advocate limiting adults' freedom to bed whomever they please--as long as the 'whomever' is old enough legally to consent and does consent. themurphia, where in Freud's writings is his comment about the Irish not being susceptible to psychoanalysis? There was a film that claimed he said or wrote this, but no one, as far as I know, has found it in his writings. It's not likely he said it because he knew that psychoanalysis could improve people's mental health only as much as doing nothing at all improves it! Maybe the Irish-- clever people-- instinctively know that there's no special benefit to psychoanalysis except self-knowledge, and what life-loving person would want that? Freud also sometimes wrote satirically, as when he asked, "What does a woman want?" He had spent his entire career saying just what women want! It turned out to be the same as men want, as the Driscoll case suggests, so his question, I think, is a self-disparaging joke. Or at least, I like to think that Freud, the dour old Victorian gentleman, could manage to laugh at himself once in a while.

• eiriamach | Aug 10, 2011, 01:26 PM EDT

  SingleDonald, I wrote nothing opposed to consensual sex between adults. Go, date your boss, and have fun! You're an adult, right? And so is she. If her being your boss adds to the thrill, great, I would never oppose it.

• SingleDonald | Aug 10, 2011, 01:15 PM EDT

  eiramach & AlunPalmer, I know you both mean well, and I have agreed with some previous comments. However, as an adult, single male, I would have every right to agree to date a female supervisor, manager, or any other "auhority figure". If she subsequently made life miserable for me, if I wouldn't go out with her, then the sexual harassment policy would be available to me, as a remedy. This is a matter of Civil Rights, of privacy & free association, after work. You can add Constitutional Rights, when employed by a public agency. Also, how should a draconian measure like this be enforced? Would a mere sighting of me with my female manager at a restaurant, movie theater, or of one of us entering the other's residence be grounds for interrogation and "discipline"?? This notion of trampling on individual rights, among consenting adults, is "political correctness" gone beserk! To sum it up, I do not revert to a boy under the age of consent, when seeking to, or accepting a date from a higher status (authority figure) woman!! Please get with it!!!

• eiriamach | Aug 10, 2011, 10:49 AM EDT

  And it's ridiculous to claim that the teachers' union will help her keep her job. It helps no union to have criminals among its members. The union has a contractual obligation to monitor her case to make sure that the school system follows due process and does not violate her rights; that's the least that any defense lawyer would do. But the union's interest is in supporting quality instruction, not rape of juveniles. I say this as a one-time union local pres and VP. She's too hot to handle for the union, which would like to see her wearing a striped suit somewhere far away from the school yard.

• eiriamach | Aug 10, 2011, 10:36 AM EDT

  There's plenty of harm done by this teacher, not least of which is the probability that this 16-year-old boy cannot write a sentence in his native language. Did he hand in all his assigned papers to his English teacher? Did she grade him "F" or "D" on any assignment no matter how poor it was? My guess is that he's nearly illiterate yet can proudly boast an "A" in English class because of his "special relationship" with his teacher, Ms Driscoll.

• seagreen | Aug 10, 2011, 10:05 AM EDT

  Tara Driscoll has taken a strange route to fame. The fact is, if you were to hang a couple of earings, and apply some basic make up, you are looking at one good looking woman !

• themurphia | Aug 10, 2011, 07:43 AM EDT

  As far as I know Freud deemed the Irish the only people not susceptible to psychoanalysis...This woman is clearly unfit to be a teacher...I didn't have a crush on any of my teachers probably because they were *penguins* with halitosis and b.o...The only male teacher in my school was the Physics master and he scared the bejaysus out of me...There was a rather tasty young priest that came to talk to us one Easter retreat...however as it was a Convent he probably wasn't attracted to the virgin boarders...!

• bogsidebunny | Aug 10, 2011, 03:38 AM EDT

  She's pretty hot alright. At sixteen I coulda done it 8-times in a couple of hours with here tutoring me of course.

• Oldwildrover | Aug 09, 2011, 11:33 PM EDT

  Where was Tara when I was going to school ???

• AlunPalmer | Aug 09, 2011, 09:27 PM EDT

  In another thread here I villified Norris for supporting PIE, a notorious pedophile group, rightly in my opinion, but this doesn't really compare. The real wrong here is that the teacher abused her position of authority. A teacher shouldn't be upto things with a student, regardless of age or consent. After that, the age of consent is arbitrary. In most places 16 would be above it, to start off with. 17 is higher than in most places, although apparently that is also the age in Ireland, but I think there are some US states where it is even 18, which strikes me as puritanical (perhaps literally, if they are states where the eponymous puritans settled).

• timbobdennehy | Aug 09, 2011, 08:38 PM EDT

  your mixing this woman up with larry murphy the rapist,she was hardly going to kill the teen afterwards. yes if she was a male teacher sleeping with a teenage girl it would be statutory rape regardless of consent. she should of waited a few months till the lad was 17,and then it would be the student teacher rubbish,which should be changed.the victim here is the teacher not the student.

• eiriamach | Aug 09, 2011, 06:52 PM EDT

  Is the Norris/Nawi defense that the boy wanted to have sex with the adult? OK then, it's time to talk Freud. Re: the Penthouse fantasies that Hollaback mentions, they're older than Sophocles' 5th century BC tragedy "Oedipus the King." As the Theban Queen Jocasta says to her son and husband, Oedipus, "Many a man before you, in his dreams, has shared his mother's bed," and she foolishly advises, "Take such things for shadows, nothing at all." Many centuries after Sophocles wrote this play, Sigmund Freud explained that we are all Oedipus, unconsciously yearning for the taboo liaison with the adult. Men fantasize about sex with older women (mother figures) and women dream of sex with older men (father figures): Oedipus' "destiny moves us only because it might have been ours.... It is the fate of all of us [men], perhaps, to direct our first sexual impulse towards our mother and our first hatred and our first murderous wish against our father. Our dreams convince us that this is so" (Interp. of Dreams, 1900). Yeah, it's the heterosexual fantasy of getting it on with Mama that leads some commenters below into perverse ways of thinking about an adult raping a child. The good news is this: if they can work through some of that in-love-with-Mama /-Papa thing, they can begin to think critically about authority figures in general (think politics and church, not just teachers). I don't know how unresolved Oedipal conflicts affect gays, but I'd be surprised if anyone is exempt from the deadly attachment to authority figures, that need to identify with the priest or Tea Party candidate for ex., that afflicts humanity in general and gives a few people such power over us.

• JamesDempsey | Aug 09, 2011, 06:37 PM EDT

  Would anybody care to say why my comment was removed? It wasnt offensive in the slightest! maybe a little sarcastic but not inflammatory or offensive, I dont see why it was removed. Seems like we have a censorship issue on Irish central

• Scrivner | Aug 09, 2011, 06:33 PM EDT

  "...and here's to you, Mrs Robinson," that's what you get for listening to oldies.

• themurphia | Aug 09, 2011, 05:55 PM EDT

  No double standard at all I suggest 'Teach' uses the Norris/Nawi defence...if it's OK for GAYS it's OK for straights...!

• eiriamach | Aug 09, 2011, 05:13 PM EDT

  Hollaback is right. The law must be consistent. And it must protect the most vulnerable. Young teenage girls can dress and use cosmetics to appear older. They can appear to be "of legal age." The law must none the less protect them, so anti-pedophilia and statutory rape laws are necessary, and such laws should not treat males differently from females. You may think that the 16-year-old boy is just getting "experience" with a mature sex partner, but he is being exploited by an adult whose behavior is criminal. Someday he will probably realize, with great anger, that he was a victim. Judging by the comments below, the old double standard, along with some new double standards, is alive and well.

• themurphia | Aug 09, 2011, 04:57 PM EDT

  hollabackgurl:You sure lurve to holler donchya...?Are you A f*ghag by any chance..?

• hollabackgurl | Aug 09, 2011, 03:48 PM EDT

  If a male 33-year-old high school teacher had slept with a 16 year old boy your heads would explode. But since it's a woman you think it's a Penthouse fantasy story. That's how messed up you are about your own sexuality.

• unshuldig | Aug 09, 2011, 02:41 PM EDT

  There was no rape. Whow screamed the loudest and who has a election to run for , the DA or the boy?

• unshuldig | Aug 09, 2011, 02:40 PM EDT

  PLease 2 16 year olds have sex and that is rape. who was raped each other..So if a 16 yo boy has sex with an older women that is rape...Did the "victim" think it was raps, did he call out for help, did he file charges.. did he get a smear test.. Political hypocrites the DA is.... thaere was no rape unless the boy comes out as says so... the sex laws are archaic at best.

• themurphia | Aug 09, 2011, 02:17 PM EDT

  Oh come off it she obviously believed he was older and anyway he led her on...you know women are unable to control their sexual urges..!;-"

• hollabackgurl | Aug 09, 2011, 01:34 PM EDT

  Under law and in common sense a 16 year old boy is exactly the same as a 16 year old girl. The people who condemned David Norris for his former partners unwise actions are now literally celebrating what they call this boys good fortune. What nauseating hypocrisy. What a bunch of transparent - double standard - b.s. artists. They can't be consistent two days running.

• SingleDonald | Aug 09, 2011, 12:48 PM EDT

  An additional comment: What about near age partners, where one is 18, 19, or 20, and tha younger one is 17, where the age of consent is 18? It would be a travesty of justice to imprison the older partner. Some of these relationships may have even begun when both parties were under 18, so why should their get togethers now be a crime?? New York State has a 5 year age gap, where, say, a 20 year old can only be charged with statutory rape if the younger partner is under 16. At 17, the age of consent is reached. Geraldo Rivera said that boys are not victims, in teacher/student sex. SOME boys, as I have illustrated below, are not victims, but others, like myself at 15, would be (or would have been).

• SingleDonald | Aug 09, 2011, 12:31 PM EDT

  At 15, I would have been frightened by advances from a female high school teacher. By 17, I would no longer have been frightened, but would have politely declined. That was me. Other boys, however, are more savvy with this kind of thing. Sure, the law should be enforced equally, regardless of the gender of the teacher. Penalties, though, should take into consideration the impact on the victim. For some boys, ages 15 16, there would be no "victimhood", just a learning experience. Those female teachers should get off lightly. In fact, I recall a 17 year old New Jersey boy, who told the judge that his teacher/paramour should NOT do jail time. His mother, a little older than teacher (30's), agreed. She got off with probation, to the best of my recollection. I know this is a controversial subject, so let's concentrate on the impact on the underage, but older lover, rather than throwing all adults in jail, over statutory rape.

• colkelley | Aug 09, 2011, 10:52 AM EDT

  If she is convicted she will get a light sentence (if not suspended) and comments like, "If my sixteen year old turned down the teacher, I'd assume he was gay!" If the genders were reversed and it was a 33 year-old male teacher and 16 year-old female student the teacher would get a 20 year sentence and you folks who are doing the "Wink-wink, nudge-nudge" act would be howling for his head. Hypocrites.

• Barterbabe30 | Aug 09, 2011, 10:43 AM EDT

  I don't get it, what does a 33 year old see in a child? That's just mental.

• Texasmomma | Aug 09, 2011, 10:43 AM EDT

  It doesn't matter if he liked it or not, he is underage and that's all that matters.

• antoman | Aug 09, 2011, 10:31 AM EDT

  Poor old JamesDempsey had his remark removed too.You are on a roll today oldboreen.Out of curiosity oldboreen..what side of the bed did you get out of this morning?

• antoman | Aug 09, 2011, 10:29 AM EDT

  @Oldboreen-Ah yes,the thou shall not make a funny on a Tuesday law.Well we'll never know how silly my remark was now that you flagged it and had it removed.Good work oldboreen.

• oldboreen | Aug 09, 2011, 09:19 AM EDT

  Learn your law 'antoman' before you make silly remarks like this!

• butlerreport | Aug 09, 2011, 09:15 AM EDT

  Not sure what alcohol abuse has to do with rape of a student. Would the previous comments be made if the the tables were turned with a 16 yo girl and a 33yo male teacher?

• mamaginnty | Aug 09, 2011, 08:24 AM EDT

  You said it all JamesDempsey, if he'd only waited a few more months, Big Headlines as usuall to catch the eye.