35 Comments

• jacersagain | Nov 19, 2012, 04:53 PM EST

  (…more) The Swedish lady, who was now a mother with her two new living children tucked up for the night in tents as we chatted around the late night camp fire, fervently pleaded with us Irish people listening to her to vote against abortion in Ireland if we were home for the vote (I wasn’t). I now encourage all women not to choose abortion freely because of that Swedish lady’s guilt and I really wouldn’t wish her life’s anguish on any woman. My heart goes out to any woman faced with such a dilemma. So, yes, ciara, I agree with you: the grey area in Irish law must be dealt with one way or another and the sooner the better.

• jacersagain | Nov 19, 2012, 04:45 PM EST

  (…more) The occasion of the Swedish lady’s tale happened around the time in the 1980’s when a Referendum on abortion was about to be held in Ireland. A large international group of us were sitting around a huge camp-fire under a warm starry Saudi Arabian night sky, chatting and chuckling about the topics of the day and whatever. The Referendum came up. The Swedish lady, a mature woman in her forties back then, joined the discussion amicably but quickly and suddenly broke down in tears, just absolutely devastated describing in unbearable agonising crying and flooding tears how she was now living for the rest of her life with her choice to abort her first two babies. She said she had no problem with the first abortion; it was “done, finished with” as she said with a flourish of her hand. But she said she heard her second aborted baby actually emit a baby cry after it was extracted before its life lapsed into death. I shudder at that happening for her. How she felt back then, as she tried to explain to all of us listening to her, is horrendously beyond my ability with words. We just could not console the lady in her anguish. (more…)

• jacersagain | Nov 19, 2012, 04:37 PM EST

  ciara, never mind oul’ Georgie Knees and Toes. Yes, I totally agree with you. I do wish the Irish Govt would legislate on the outcome of the ‘X’ case and of other cases and get rid of the grey area. Whatever way it legislates, like you, I will be bound by the law. That is not to say that I might agree with the law – there are plenty of laws in Ireland that I totally disagree with but as an Irish citizen, I am bound by them. I used to be pro-choice (never pro-abortion) on the abortion topic and, quite honestly, I still have a leaning towards that human right of a woman to choose, whether I agree with it or not. These days, I am certain that free-choice abortion is wrong and would not condone it, after listening to a Swedish woman, who, by free choice under Swedish law aborted two babies that she didn’t want, describe the aftermath of her choices. (More…)

• jacersagain | Nov 19, 2012, 04:19 PM EST

  EamonnDublin – fair dues to you for phoning in complaints to the un-caring, un-listening, selfish Irish media! I never thought to do so meself. I used to post comments on the Irish Independent’s (the ‘Indo’) and Irish Times’ online articles or letters pages under a name different from ‘jacersagain’ where I might either agree with journalists or take them to task - but since these Irish online papers now demand formal registration with them before allowing you to post comments, I’ve not done so. I’d rather keep my freedom to be not harassed personally by those who vehemently disagree with my points. But I would have, as I’ve done before, posted comments on articles that brazenly misrepresent stories of any topic or subject, such as Savita’s case. Thankfully, others are saying online on both papers’ sites what I might have said. You’re a sound man Eamonn… the Holy Spirit of Wisdom must be with ya! - God bless ya.

• WoundedKnee | Nov 19, 2012, 03:16 PM EST

  Opening Salvo: Sorry to expose you to the truth, but despite what you say countless Irish are acting in a subservient, supine and apologetic way in the face of Indian bullying.

• WoundedKnee | Nov 19, 2012, 03:12 PM EST

  You're still an utter fool, ciaradexy. Tell us how many doctors have been " sued, struck off, jailed etc" for good faith treatment of pregnant women in Ireland in the past decade. The answer is ZERO, you liar.

• ciaradexy | Nov 19, 2012, 12:08 PM EST

  Jacers, 'technically' abortion is allowed but as there has been no legislation passed to allow for it, its a massive grey area. If the doc performed an abortion, he could have been sued, struck off, jailed etc. His hands were tied. There was a heart beat,so he couldnt abort.

• EamonnDublin | Nov 19, 2012, 11:27 AM EST

  "HappyHippo" - Good Man Yerself! I'm delighted you got that off your chest. I trust you will feel better in the morning. Éamonn, Dublin, Extremely Proud to be Irish.

• iriishgirl | Nov 19, 2012, 11:10 AM EST

  Thanks chicksooze - I agree with you – no rash decision should be made at this point. I have a feeling poor Savita’s medical chart is riddled with interventions the doctors did to try to save her. I am sure once the facts are found out – medical and non-medical people alike will hear a very different story from what is in the media.

• chicksooze | Nov 19, 2012, 10:40 AM EST

  @happyhippo - Enda Kenny should not be pressured into making any decisions at this time just because there's an outcry, that would be foolish and weak on his part. I'm sure he's waiting for the facts to come in before anything will be decided. GOOD FOR HIM. @iriishgirl - spot on girl, very well said.

• iriishgirl | Nov 19, 2012, 09:44 AM EST

  This whole thing is an unfortunate situation, and a tragedy for Savita’s family. A young woman has been lost, a husband widowed, and doctors who are probably wonderful health care providers are now being touted as murderers (ridiculous). However, as has been mentioned below by others – it was not the pre-term labor that killed Savita – it was the sepsis. Had the sepsis been treated aggressively (antibiotics), perhaps she would not have died. On the other hand, as none of us have the medical chart in front of us - maybe even antibiotics might not have saved her. Sepsis can be acute, rapid and fatal - as in this case. Unfortunately pro-choice advocates and anti-Catholics are using this as an excuse to push their agenda and make Ireland look like some kind of a cruel “out of date” country that should join the ranks of the rest of the world and end innocent lives at the drop of a hat. I worked on a maternity floor for 10 years and one thing I have to say to those people is - abortions do not cure sepsis. On another note – when you decide to live in a country you may want to educate yourself on their practices/laws such as abortion, euthanasia ect. Not that you have to agree with the practices/laws, but you may be forced to live by them. I have made decisions on where to live based on several health care options – and I don’t expect a country, state, town or province to change their laws to suit my personal opinions. And I don’t mean to sound cruel to Savita’s family in regards to their choice to live in Ireland – I just think it is important to consider medically related practices and laws that might affect your family.

• Happyhippo | Nov 19, 2012, 08:26 AM EST

  When it comes to their moral duty,Ireland has always been a gutless delusional socialist Catholic country,witness the cover up of child clerical abuse for years,the fact that 12 Irish women abort their perfectly healthy babies every single day in the UK,yet they rejected abortion when polled on the issue,when it comes to Sevita's case,one things guaranteed,those elected to legislate will again fudge the issue as they have done for 20 years.As Mr Kenny last week said he's in no hurry to legislate,even though a similar case could occur at any time.Cowardly and yellow is not the only words most people use to describe these people.

• EamonnDublin | Nov 19, 2012, 04:40 AM EST

  Excellent post, "JacersAgain", thank you! Might I just add that the Irish media is behaving disgracefully in this whole matter. Two months ago, they hardly mentioned the fact that two Irish women died during childbirth in Dublin within 24 hours of each other. An extremely rare occurence - why did these tragedies get no press coverage? Also, over the weekend, the Irish media quotes Savita's husband as saying that the medical team attending to Savita were "inhumane". I hope and trust that we will see very large libel actions against the Irish media for relaying such a disgusting, outrageous claim. At least, in the case of the tragic husband, there is an excuse in that he is going through a very difficult time, but, in the case of the media, there is absolutely NO excuse for this libel. I might add that I telephoned some of the media here over the weekend in order to protest and, without exception, I was told to get on my bike! Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.

• SheilaSB | Nov 18, 2012, 10:29 PM EST

  Katiemac and FromPhoenix make many good points, but it is a medical fact that leaking amniotic fluid can lead to infection of pregnancy tissues and septicemia. In the 1970s I had a married co-worker who, in the sixth month of pregnancy, was hospitalized to prevent premature labor and the loss of her child. In the seventh month and still confined to bed rest in the hospital, she went into labor and had leakage of amniotic fluid. A nurse, who took her temperature, realized my friend was developing septicemia and alerted doctors with a Code Blue. The doctors saved my friend and her son by performing an emergency C-section and treating my friend with Cleocin, an IV antibiotic used for septicemia in the 1970s. Several years later I had a similar experience when I went into labor four days before a scheduled C-section. I rushed to the hospital, where my physician performed the C-section within 90 minutes. Later a nurse mentioned there is a danger of uterine infection and septicemia whenever amniotic fluid leaks, and I related this with my friend's experience in her seventh month of pregnancy. So, the woman from India was not necessarily in bad health before she went into labor. I believe most of the problem is one of semantics or terminology. It is unfortunate that the Irish medical personnel described the event as a "miscarriage" rather than "premature labor," especially when the fetus still had a heart beat. It is necessary to deliver the fetus and remove the pregnancy tissues to prevent a massive infection, and treatment with a strong antibiotic is given.

• jacersagain | Nov 18, 2012, 10:17 PM EST

  (..more) In all this debate, the Irish and other countries’ pro-life people’s views on Savita’s and her baby’s deaths have been pushed aside. Their views are as honest and as important as my simple contributory thoughts are in the caring that we all share in this tragedy and that of the un-reported Irish, Pakistani, Congolese and lots of other countries' ones. I think the medics in Galway, who fought to save Savita and her baby, might have a case to sue NDTV and lots of other media outlets for this horrendous false claim that was spread all over the world. We must await the outcome of medical & legal investigations into this tragedy. Let no one pre-judge its outcome, or use the tragedy of Savita’s and her child’s deaths or her husband Praveen’s mourning pain for selfish motives, whether of pro- or anti-abortion thinking. I think we all might be shocked further by the outcomes… and I mean, all of them.

• jacersagain | Nov 18, 2012, 10:00 PM EST

  (..more) Abortion IS allowed under Irish law in carefully considered medical, psychiatric and psychological circumstances, not just on the grounds of religious of whatever-hue beliefs, (Irish law is separate from religion in these matters: Protestants, Catholics, Christian Orthodox and Jewish people alike in Ireland do not condone unwarranted abortion, the deliberate killing of a future human being. That’s murder, in their views). We could talk about “murder” and real murder in another Irish context in another forum but not in this really humanising, sensitive, un-unique case of Savita’s, and, more especially, of the many unreported few other deaths of Irish women and their babies in Irish hospitals in similar circumstances. In such medical, psychiatric and psychological circumstances and cases, deliberate extraction of a baby in the womb and its termination of life are never classed as murder by Protestants, Catholics or Orthodox Christians. It is never murder as falsely proclaimed by India’s NDTV in Savita’s case. (more…)

• jacersagain | Nov 18, 2012, 09:50 PM EST

  (…more)The headlines, appearing in India claiming that Savita was ‘murdered' by Catholic doctors in Galway, Ireland, have not a whit of evidence or truth. Not a whit. It is a total shame that, in this case, an Indian woman’s medical condition should be used for their own falsely highlighting agenda by NDTV and by Irish and American pro-abortionists to slam the fantastic record of Ireland’s medics in maternity care, a care aided by Indian, Pakistani, African and lots of others of our world’s countries’ specialists. Remarkably noticeably unreported, Savita’s incidental case is not the first to have happened in Ireland or in any other country in our world and it won’t be the last. Not many know this but abortion IS allowed in Ireland under certain circumstances, but not of the elective kind e.g. where a pregnant woman decides that she doesn’t want the baby just because “Oh flip! It’ll be a nuisance! Get rid of “IT”… or of the like thinking of the already-growing human being inside her, a future human being, just like she was once in her mother’s womb. (more…)

• jacersagain | Nov 18, 2012, 09:41 PM EST

  (…more) Though her husband Praveen (what an Irish-sounding name!) claims they asked for the baby to be aborted, the medical team in Galway were already working to save Savita from the septicaemia attack, to save her and to save her baby whose heart was still beating and could not, medically, introduce drugs that would interfere with their legally-obliged attempts to save both. There is NO PROOF anywhere that the medical staff’s attempt to save both was limited by “Catholic country” ethos apart from her own husband’s sole claim of that (he is already talking of chasing compensation money. Think think blinking eyes' $$). (So, more…)

• jacersagain | Nov 18, 2012, 09:35 PM EST

  (…more) It turns out that Savita’s husband made this “claim” in a phone interview on Irish Radio from his home country, India, to which he had returned 14 days after she died - and Irish media and pro-abortion activists latched onto his own, one, sole claim. While puzzled at first, I’ve since read that claim of his is not true. I saw the same false claim on India’s New Delhi TV (NDTV) via Sky TV e.g. ‘This is a Catholic country’ showed up in its news banners. The claim being popularised in the media is that Savita died because her child was not aborted. This story has been completely misrepresented everywhere around the world against simple facts as known so far. Savita died from septicaemia (a blood poisoning disease), NOT from failure or refusal by medics to abort the baby. This disease was apparently already in her body, according to her husband, he mentioning her having kidney dialysis in his Radio interview. Her failing kidneys may have contributed to the looming miscarriage of their baby. The disease caused her kidneys to stop working; endotoxic shock (harmful bacteria invasion) follows in to her body, leading to collapse of other vital organs and other medical complications. Not nice (more…)

• jacersagain | Nov 18, 2012, 09:28 PM EST

  I am one of the millions in Ireland deeply shocked and saddened by the news of Savita’s death as published in the Irish media. The case puzzled me at first because what I read in the papers “claimed” that Savita’s (RIP) death happened because she was not given proper attention by medical staff on “This is a Catholic Country” grounds. (Whether or not that it was Catholics who were involved in the caring for and treating of Savita, the ethos of medical care and attention of patients in Ireland is the primary aim of all medical staff in all of our Irish hospitals, where many Indian, Pakistani, African and other nation’s doctors and nurses learn from working alongside our own Irish specialist doctors and nurses as specialists in maternity and gynaecological and other medical fields; in fact, hospitals in Ireland are on record as being the safest places on earth to have a baby, given its excellent record in safe maternity care, attention and delivery). Well, let’s look at this case anew… and at the ‘claims’ being made around it, ‘cos I was very puzzled by the reporting of this sad incident and I bothered me barmy looked into it more… (More…)

• jacersagain | Nov 18, 2012, 09:24 PM EST

  I don’t know how to goodly to support two different womanly views that are equally correct, as posted by katiemac and eirimach. God help uz… the good mac wimmen are fighting amongst each other!!... Anyways…. I’m gonna take this topic of Sivita’s death much more seriously and I hope you’ll bear with me thoughts and I ask (esp of eiriamach) that you don’t argue back but think about them. This Sivita topic is serious enough for us all to find agreement on. Bear with me please while I beg your attentions, if you’ll bother your barmies to do so… Me great splurge is coming: hope fully ICentral will allow it all…

• jacersagain | Nov 18, 2012, 08:52 PM EST

  Silling - you are way off track. Time for you to catch up on the Ireland that you left. Come home and gather up with all that you love and left to be good at elsewhere. Be at The Gathering when the time suits you and yours back home. You won't be sorry...

• barneyjo | Nov 18, 2012, 07:24 PM EST

  @woundedknee - so you're not Irish yourself then!!

• eiriamach | Nov 18, 2012, 04:37 PM EST

  katiemac, why are you demonizing women and men who are trying to save the lives of pregnant women with medical problems?

• katiemac | Nov 18, 2012, 03:48 PM EST

  Another case in which the pro-abortion troops take a few facts and run with them. The lack of abortion did not kill this woman. Sepsis did. If the stories are to be believed the fetus was still alive and therefore not the source of the sepsis. So it follows that removing the fetus would also not remove the sepsis. However, under Church teaching, a life-saving procedure, which unintentionally results in abortion, is considered acceptable because abortion is not the intention of the procedure. Good example, ectopic pregnancy. So with this case, had doctors gone in and removed whatever was causing the sepsis, which, again, was not necessarily the child, even if such resulted in abortion, that should have been in keeping with the law. Of course, there is no way to really know the facts, because the pro-abortion factions in all countries is notorious for altering them for most dramatic media frenzy.

• Opening Salvo | Nov 18, 2012, 03:19 PM EST

  Wounded Knee the Irish are well aware that India is a dump. Just as we are now well aware that you are a complete idiot for assuming we don't.

• WoundedKnee | Nov 18, 2012, 03:11 PM EST

  Silling tells us that the Irish are racist. Maybe care to explain how such racists tolerate the highest rate of immigration in Europe, silling? You're an idiot.

• Opening Salvo | Nov 18, 2012, 02:54 PM EST

  Silling would you kindly shut your stupid mouth and keep your idiotic opinions to yourself. There is absolutely nothing about this case to suggest there was an element of racism involved. You're some idiot who left Ireland 30 years ago, has never been back since and who thinks they know what Ireland is like. Ireland doesn't need to grow up. You need to shut up, and stop making ludicrous assumptions about a place you know nothing about!

• EamonnDublin | Nov 18, 2012, 01:05 PM EST

  I have today emailed the Indian Ambassador to Ireland, as follows - Dear Ambassador, I note that the Irish ambassador to India has been summoned, in order to account for the tragic death of an Indian national in Ireland under circumstances of a dangerous childbirth situation. Might I say that I am most intrigued that a nation, which turns a blind eye to the callous and INTENTIONAL murder of an average of 1,000 innocent young women EVERY YEAR, should seek to call another sovereign nation to account for an accidental death. These murders in India are committed in the name of "family honour", even most disgustingly described as "honour killings" and they are NOT accidental, but are, indeed murders most foul. Would not your authorities be far better employed at seeking to rectify the above - also trying to improve the death in childbirth ratio to somewhere even approaching Ireland's almost unsurpassed record in this field? I understand that 20,000 Indian women die in your country every year during childbirth. Twenty thousand!!! Many of your own countrywomen arrive on our shores, already pregnant, every year in order to have their babies here and to live here. We welcome them and they enjoy living amongst us. Is this the thanks we get - one single accidental death and your government makes an international diplomatic scene out of it? A little reflection on India's part would not go amiss. Yours sincerely (Full Name Supplied) Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland. Very Proud to be IRISH.

• FromPhoenix | Nov 18, 2012, 12:17 PM EST

  Paul Ryan, failed vice presidential candidate and his wife faced this exact same situation and chose to abort thee fetus to save Mrs. Ryan's life. Had they lived in Ireland, she might have met the same fate. And yet Paul Ryan supported a bill to outlaw all abortions, just as was the case here. He only changed his stance once he was nominated for vice president. Despite the fact that he and his wife made a choice to abort their fetus in favor of his wife's life.

• Silling | Nov 18, 2012, 12:03 PM EST

  perhaps the truth is, " SHE WAS NOT WHITE " so what was the big deal. Remember the Union Carbide disaster in Bhopal? 20,000 died in first minute and hardly a word about it in the media. We are still hearing about the Twin Bloody towers and Hurricane Sandy will no doubt plague us for the next ten years. But of course " There was white Americans in those incidents " Grow up Ireland and accept that you are a racist bunch of bars-turds.

• Silling | Nov 18, 2012, 11:53 AM EST

  Religion is the problem with Ireland. Abolish Patricks Day, a disastrous day in Irish history 432 when Catholicism darkened our shores. I left Ireland 30 years ago because it is such a backward place and now this!! Read my book " Boyhood's Fire " see why I left Ireland.

• MichaelMcGrath | Nov 18, 2012, 11:51 AM EST

  Cyncically it's the Irish abortionists on the march egged on by the abortionist NUJ dominated media exploiting that poor woman's unnecessary death - it seems she wasn't given antibiotics in time and died from septecemia.

• Helen Ferone | Nov 18, 2012, 11:08 AM EST

  There was no reason for this poor woman to die, and suffer for 3 days. Do we live in a barbaric age? The fetus wasn't viable, they knew she was miscarrying so why let her suffer for no reason? I expect more from doctors and hospitals, and shame on you.

• donal1951 | Nov 18, 2012, 09:33 AM EST

  I am strongly pro-life as an Orthodox priest, but there's also common sense. Here, because of antiquated laws or a poor interpretation of them, both the mother and the foetus were forced to die. It would have been justified to terminate the pregnancy to save the young Indian dentist.