81 Comments

• KatieMurphy | Apr 30, 2012, 11:35 PM EDT

  I quote Intercessor | Apr 08, 2012, 10:13 PM EDT "Australian Catholics have a name for their good, fellow parishioners, who report every little infraction in word or deed performed by a priest, to their bishop, archbishop or cardinal. They are ominously called, "The Temple Police".........Thanks for reminding me of another "temple police". The "Mutwah" the islamic police who enforce the religious laws in Saudi land..........................Never realzied before that the pope and the church are learning from the people who gave America 9-11, London the subway bombings, dont think Ireland has had any of this particular type of tragedy ONe has to wonder what kind of "peace talks" did the pope have a couple years ago when he went to the mideast and met with the head Mufti of Islam in that area.

• KatieMurphy | Apr 30, 2012, 11:28 PM EDT

  Wonder when the firing squads will be sent to old Ireland. I dont mean the pink slip people but the ones with fire sticks. boom. Its about the only thing the church hasnt done to try and shut up dissenters...........Thank God it doesnt dare claim immunity from laws against murder. - yet.

• IrelandNorth | Apr 11, 2012, 06:36 AM EDT

  All orthodox Christianities are counterfeit. Institutional dinosaurs cannot be reformed, only replicated, as in Luther's protestantism,, a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. The real temple is in your heart, not in some external architectural structure. Free your mind. Read the Gnostic Gospels! The gospels pompous Alexandrian and Lyonaise bishops didn't want you to read.

• turzovka | Apr 10, 2012, 02:32 PM EDT

  Well this is a bit dismaying. Intercessor challenges my comment about Jesus reference to obedience to the Church as being tantamount to obeying heaven. I gave him a thoughtful response including Scripture references. It remains up for a day or so, but now has been removed. What I am I to draw from that?

• eiriamach | Apr 09, 2012, 05:44 PM EDT

  I did not post the comment at Apr 09, 2012, 09:40 AM EDT below. IC bugs crawling again! When I opened this page, that comment had no name on it, and now it has mine--wrong!

• eiriamach | Apr 09, 2012, 05:34 PM EDT

  Intercessor, I had a similar experience in Catholic school. I recall one episode in third grade or fourth, when the nun was explaining Martin Luther's reforms as a grave sin of disobedience to the pope. I asked one of those stupid Catholic grade school questions: "Is Luther in hell now?" The nun replied quickly, "Of course!" But then, it was as though a lightning bolt struck her, and she put her hand over her mouth, and when she spoke again she said, "We can't know the answer to that question. Only God knows whether Luther was really guilty of a mortal sin of disobedience. Only God knows if Luther followed his conscience or the devil" (or words to that effect). That was my first introduction to the idea of conscience and free will, and it was scary to think that one man's free speech could so much change history. Children and popes are frightened of freedom! I think Dante saw Luther coming somehow. As a devout Catholic, Dante wrote the great book about Hell and told us where in Hell some of the popes ended up. He used his artistic freedom well, and the Catholic Church has gotten much use out of his descriptions of the Inferno (although it condemned the work for a while).

• eiriamach | Apr 09, 2012, 09:40 AM EDT

  @ Intercessor: Jesus speaks of the Church’s authority in Matthew 16 where he endows upon it “the keys of the kingdom” among other things. ------ “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” ***************************** Paul speaks of the authority of the Church here: 1 Timothy 3:14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

• frhugh58 | Apr 09, 2012, 08:06 AM EDT

  The Vat 11 document on Religious Fredoom is a marvellous document, except that it does not apply within The Roman Catholic Church

• frhugh58 | Apr 09, 2012, 08:01 AM EDT

  @Colette 2 A somewhat abrupt and rather impolite post. Given that various Superiors of Irish Religious Orders have been involved in the clergy abuse scandal, as well as Cardinals and Bishops, Iunless you think iy is God's Will of course, then I would think it somewhat obvious that these men can hardly be gauarantors of God's Will! I would put it to you Colette that no human being can be the guarantor od God's Will. Perhaps a goo spiritual director may be in order!

• Intercessor | Apr 08, 2012, 10:33 PM EDT

  Turzovka: Your post said, "Jesus said in so many words, if we are obedient to The Church, we are obedient to heaven." Where does it say anything like that in the Bible? It's not in the Bible that I've studied for almost 40 years, and I doubt if it is in yours! Perhaps you're quoting an old nun or Spencer Tracey in an old Hollywood movie. You're surely not quoting the Gospel of Christ, who taught, "The Kingdom of God is WITHIN!"

• Intercessor | Apr 08, 2012, 10:25 PM EDT

  To Eiriamach: I have often said, "Where is Dante Aligheri when we need him?" I think that many of us, who were raised Catholics, were beat up so much with nonsensical doctrines and dogmas, when we were younger, that when we grew old enough to realize that we had Free Will, one of the first things that we did was to leave the Church! I clearly remember the first argument I got into with a nun, when I was about 8 or 9 years old. Our class was told that we would "Go to Hell," if we disagreed with any Catholic Doctrine, Catholic Popes, etc. I asked, "What if our conscious tells us something doesn't make sense?" That was a really stupid question!!!! I felt that I was labeled as a potential heretic, which today, is a badge that I proudly wear! When I discovered Dante in college, I thought, "Where have you been all of my life?" It's too bad that Dante isn't taught in Catholic Schools as much as "The Laws of the Church," and catechism. If he were, we wouldn't have so many puppet, Pew-potatoes!

• KatieMurphy | Apr 08, 2012, 10:14 PM EDT

  I mihgt add that i know the people at "new ways ministry" in the USA, a progressive, not head in the sand catholic organization.......................They told me that some of hte tricks the hierarchy uses to keep priests in line is sending dissenters to parishes spread all over the back woods country where they may have to drive to 5-6 little churches on sunday.................And also threatening to cut off the pensions of priests who dissent or tell the truth about the church.......................Just anther form of tyranny in the name of "love"

• Intercessor | Apr 08, 2012, 10:13 PM EDT

  Australian Catholics have a name for their good, fellow parishioners, who report every little infraction in word or deed performed by a priest, to their bishop, archbishop or cardinal. They are ominously called, "The Temple Police." The dreaded "Temple Police" in Toowoomba, Australia reported their much beloved, Bishop Morris, to the Vatican. (Now is time to hear the opening strains of Bach's Prelude and Fugue in D minor.) Bishop Morris happened to voice his opinion that women and married men should be allowed to be priests. This was too much for the Vatican, who sent out Archbishop Chaput from Denver (recently promoted to Philly) to run a present-day Inquisition, which ended up removing Bishop Morris from his office! Luckily, or maybe it was an oversight, but Bishop Morris was not burned at the stake! No reason was given by Archbishop Chaput, and the reason that was given for Chaput not giving a reason was, "For the Good of All Concerned!" Yep! "For the good of ALL concerned," except Bishop Morris and the people who loved him! Temple Police 1, Bishop Morris 0.

• KatieMurphy | Apr 08, 2012, 10:07 PM EDT

  aS usual the church will do anything to stay in its "comfort zone" the only questionis which century that is.

• eiriamach | Apr 08, 2012, 03:12 PM EDT

  "The greatest gift that God in His bounty made in creation, and the most conformable to His goodness, and that which He prizes the most, was the freedom of will, with which the creatures with intelligence, they ***all*** and they alone, were and are endowed"—- Dante Alighieri. If Dante was right, then it destroys human dignity to obey like puppets, mindlessly, without question or debate, when a human being claiming to be God's personally appointed moral authority, commands us. Fr. Flannery is doing God's work with intelligence and dignity.

• eiriamach | Apr 08, 2012, 02:55 PM EDT

  If the word "conscience" meant "conformity to Mother Church," then it would mean the same as "obedience." In fact, it would mean "mindless, unquestioning obedience," and the moral law/ natural law/ the law of God forbids us ever to obey mindlessly on important matters of morality. If it did not, we'd still have race slavery in America, and plenty of other evil customs once advocated by "Mother Church." Earlier I quoted Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who, once upon a time before he became pope, understood what "conscience" means: "Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands **one's own conscience**, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority," even against official Church teaching, as conscience dictates. We can't make words mean whatever we want them to mean unless we've gone down the rabbit hole with Alice, or Sophium. The moral law is primary; conscience must conform with it, not with any competing human authority.

• Collette2 | Apr 08, 2012, 12:16 PM EDT

  Rubbish Mark, Obedience to ones superiors for religious, is the certitude of doing Gods will. Conscience has nothing to do with it.

• Sophium | Apr 08, 2012, 11:36 AM EDT

  barneyjo, you are not paying attention. This is a direct quote from the Catholic Catechism. You, like your rebellious mates here, have taken that out of context. Read the entire quotation. If you do, you have no other recourse than to place your conscience in conformity to Mother Church and Her....wait for it......***representatives.*** Wishing otherwise does not make it so.

• barneyjo | Apr 08, 2012, 11:19 AM EDT

  @Sophium - "conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ" (your words) So not the church then......... Precisely!!

• Sophium | Apr 08, 2012, 11:08 AM EDT

  Pipermac sounds wise to me, markday. You and others here are distorting what is meant by conscience. Conscience is being in conformity to God's law, as defined by Mother Church. It is in 1778 of the Catholic Catechism. Note that conscience is not **primary** as you would like to have it: "Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:..... . . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ." Note carefully the words that sink your reasoning: "by his representatives." Will you claim to be one of those representatives, markday?

• markday | Apr 08, 2012, 10:08 AM EDT

  pipermac: The church has never taught blind obedience, but the primacy of one's conscience. That was ratified again by Vatican II. The word obedience comes from the Latin (audire: to listen to). The church is not a military organization. And you sound theologically illiterate. What are these "immutable truths" you are talking about? They can try, but the pope and he bishops cannot shut down any discussion on women's ordination and a married priesthood.

• MHogan1 | Apr 08, 2012, 12:38 AM EDT

  I agree with Fr. Egan. I'm a practicing Catholic in the U.S. We have a long tradition of free speech, which has been threatened many times, as by J. Edgar Hoover. There is less free speech within the Church but it is there. When it appears, especially in the orders-- who have their own "synergy", the speech should be permitted. I'm sorry we're not talking "heresy" here, especially re married priests. Let there be discussion, or as we say in the U.S., free speech in the marketplace of ideas will sort out the truth. Marie In recent news articles here, the Pope has been referred to as "God's rotweiler".

• Collette2 | Apr 08, 2012, 12:25 AM EDT

  Tell us something new. We as Catholics have been on the receiving end for decades. Try getting a tear from the psychologically, spiritually and physically abused.

• PiperMac52 | Apr 07, 2012, 11:26 PM EDT

  It would do well to remember that the Catholic church is NOT a democratic organization. Every priest and prelate is subject to a vow of obedience willingly taken upon ordination(Holy orders). When a priest speaks publicly he may not advocate or support that which is in direct contradiction/opposition to church teachings or Doctrine. For far to long liberal priests were given free reign without recrimination leading many unschooled "Catholics" to assume that Cultural relativism was acceptable even when those ideas are diametrically opposed to Church teachings. If a priest or lay person does not agree with those teachings, they may leave the church. They can not change those truths which are immutable.

• markday | Apr 07, 2012, 11:02 PM EDT

  All this reminds me of a story told to me years ago in Los Angeles by Bert Corona, the legendary Chicano labor and civil rights leader. Bert said that the angel Gabriel was giving a guided tour of heaven for some recently arrivals, probably a Jewish couple from Miami Beach. He took them to restaurants, bars, country clubs, condo communities, etc. where everyone was obviously having a great time. He ended up at a chapel where candles were ablaze, there was the waft of incense, and ponderous organ music. Everyone there had a serious, pious demeanor. Who are these people? the Jewish man asked. "Shhhhhhhhhsh," whispered Gabriel. "Please be quiet. These are the Catholics. They think they're the only ones up here." With that I will rest my case.

• IowaMike | Apr 07, 2012, 09:35 PM EDT

  They should get a bicycle built for two and peddle over to the Anglican faith community.....Bye bye!

• turzovka | Apr 07, 2012, 09:08 PM EDT

  FBI tactics, hah? Well if we saw this occurring with some regularity to the 600,000 Catholic priests in the fold, then I might say this article has a point. But the fact a very rare rogue voice is censored is hardly "spies in every pew." This Tony priest is hardly onto something new that has not already been diced and sliced for centuries. The pope is the final authority on doctrine and the like. A priest's obedience does far more good for the Church and the faithful than his defiance of settled issues. The public dissention of wayward priests or wayward bishops as with the sex scandal, notwithstanding. That is of a totally different matter. But as to female priests and gay marriage, it's as St. Augustine once answered: "Rome has spoken, the case is closed." Jesus said in so many words, if we are obedient to The Church, we are obedient to heaven.

• irishpjk | Apr 07, 2012, 07:13 PM EDT

  Many of today’s Catholics including some priests don’t want to obey the laws of the church so they do their own thing, now that puts them in a spot because they are living in sin and worry that they will go to hell. So they decide that the laws are wrong and they want to change them, then they start badmouthing the church in hope that that will bring out support for their cause. If you are not happy with the church GTFO, one way or the other you will pay on the last day.

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 06:03 PM EDT

  I apologize for being rather picky now, but I wish the ACP has not used the phrase "primacy of the individual conscience." It calls to mind Luther's stand and invokes the spectre of another Protestant rising. I prefer "autonomy of conscience" because it connotes freedom of the will, which is compatible with objective morality, or what Antigone (going ancient Greek here again) called the law of the gods when she asked, "What law of the mighty gods have I transgressed?" (Line 1014 of Sophocles' "Antigone"). Antigone offered the most enduring and still compelling description of the primacy of moral law and the autonomy of conscience from any merely human authority: "Nor did I think that [the king's] edict had such force that you, a mere mortal, could override the gods, the great unwritten, unshakeable traditions. They are alive, not just today or yesterday: they live forever from the first of time" (503-7).

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 05:36 PM EDT

  Sophium, your moral attitude looks like ethical relativism! Was it not Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger who wrote, echoing a Vatican II constitution, "Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands **one's own conscience**, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. This emphasis on the individual, whose conscience confronts him with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one which is in the last resort beyond the claim of external social groups, **even of the official Church**, also establishes a principle of opposition to increasing totalitarianism." "Must be obeyed before all else" sounds NOT like self-indulgence but like a moral imperative. You seem to argue that if conscience leads one to reject unholy claims of authority figures, we should obey the authority and over-rule our consciences. But conscience is autonomous from human authority; it takes shape in moral principles, values, and natural law. When an authority figure violates these, as the current pope has repeatedly done, then to follow conscience is to obey the law of God rather than that of men, as the NT instructs us to do. You attribute the same self-interested motives to the ACPIreland's call to discuss Church teaching on human sexuality. Isn't that a rush to judgment even before any crime? Tossing around words like "about 'Me'" and "rebellion" and "Cult of Self" is not an argument; it's a sour grapes characterization.

• barneyjo | Apr 07, 2012, 05:26 PM EDT

  @Sophium - Hey, why not wind your neck in a little. I'm one of those Irish Catholics of which you speak (preach) And when I'm at can I give you a little reminder in the shape of the following verse from scripture "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven" (Luke 6:37) You have no more preserve on right or wrong than anyone else. This is my "Irish Church" my faith you are dissing and I dont appreciate it one bit :(

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 04:43 PM EDT

  Thank you, eiriamach, for proposing an alternative to the Catholic Church which is called, "Towards an Assembly of the Irish Catholic Church." The first primary objective listed is this: primacy of the individual conscience. This is exactly my point in my most recent post here. It is bowing down to the Cult of Self. It's all about "Me." A second objective is this: "A re-evaluation of Catholic sexual teaching and practice that recognizes the profound mystery of human sexuality and the experience and wisdom of God’s people." This is rebellion in sheep's clothing----doing what one wishes when one wishes.....oh, and yes, let's use abortion as back-up birth control. Here is a prediction: This self appointed group of arrogant people (They call themselves, get this, "the Irish Catholic Church." It is to laugh.) will be marginalized within a year. You seem to think that they are the new way. Time will tell, eiriamach. Time will tell.

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 04:28 PM EDT

  Oh yes, there's an alternative in Ireland: “Towards an Assembly of the Irish Catholic Church,” sponsored by the ACP, Monday, May 7th in the Regency Hotel, Dublin. Somehow I suspect that the assembled priests and layity will find time to imagine the freedom of the children of God.

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 04:21 PM EDT

  47 comments, most with the confidence of an adolescent, telling his parents how oppressive and stupid they are. Mark Twain once said that when he returned home as a young adult, he was very surprised to see how much his father had grown up. I have not seen even one----even one----comment from the Catholic Church-bashers here telling all of us **what the alternative is** once Mother Church is rejected. Do you choose something like the French Revolution (600,000 dead and then the dictator Napoleon stepped in), or how about Mao's little tiff (at least 49 million dead), or then there is Stalin's way (23 million "purged")? I know, let's worship Self......53 million innocents in America alone slaughtered in the womb at the altar of the Self. And the band plays on....self, self, self. Ireland, get your senses back! You will fall into the Cult of Self almost without realizing it. You don't believe me? Then put your adolescent brains to work and tell us your utopian vision once you spit on Mother Church.

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 04:20 PM EDT

  Sophium, from time immemorial, "Certain people have had a quest for hierarchy and domination over the developing human being in the womb." Those "certain people" have been men, and today they are men in the garb of RC clerics. The ancient Greeks had their myths, in which Zeus usurps the procreative role of women by giving birth to Athena from his head and to Heracles from his thigh. They understood female power as co-Creator of the human race, and they knew that no male claim to authority could stand against it, so they found ways to usurp it. Today's usurpers of procreative power take the guise of churchmen and theologians, whose rules lash women's lives with condemnations. The pope replies to Fr. Flanagan and others who raise the question of women's ordination that he has "no authority" to ordain women (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis). How much less authority does he have from Jesus, who gave no warrant, no basis in scripture or revelation, for legislating the sexual and reproductive lives of women, apart from a prohibition of adultery for both men and women, straight, gay, or whatever. This realm of human sexuality is a realm of freedom which Jesus wisely did not constrain, and he certainly never singled out women for special rules. The USCCB's proposed "Blessing on the unborn child" is another cruel political assault geared to distract us from the fact that 60% of fertilized ova never implant and one-third of all pregnancies terminate in spontaneous abortions--the work of Nature? God? But you do not obsess over those facts, do you? Nor do you care about the suffering of women who experience loss in pregnancy.

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 04:13 PM EDT

  while your daddy may have been one, I held a card for over 10 years to the ILA... Loved the union, didn't knock them, only Gleason the then President who by his own words, "regretted" supporting him. I suggest you call your daddy and get your facts little girl.. Reagan was a complete pig to the working man, he crushed several Unions... Ask your daddy...

• manhattan | Apr 07, 2012, 03:51 PM EDT

  Reagan was no pig and I resent that from an idiot like you. As for Longshoreman they are now and always have been the most patriotic people in this country. I should know I'm the daughter of one. Boy ,someone must have kicked your behind for you to be so angry. I hope it was a longshoreman because if you spouted that to them you would not be able to sit down for a long time.

• SeanO | Apr 07, 2012, 02:39 PM EDT

  IRISHPHOTOGRAPH, The historical enemies of Irelard are the Irish themselves. Why do you think some of the Earls went to europe and abandoned their realms for the taking by English lords.Our modern day earls have all the exploited Irish wealth in offshore banks, Leave the Serfs to slave and be taxed till the next big political/bankster rip off.

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 02:38 PM EDT

  Ronald Reagan-the great communicator---another pig--- tried to break the back of the working man......were still here, he is not.... Only Union in the US to endorse him--The Longshoreman--they got paid back with endless investigaions.....

• RockNReel | Apr 07, 2012, 02:18 PM EDT

  I agree with Irishphotograph comments but have to say that all of Ireland is not that silly to be herded into beliefs that are obviously wrong and outdated so thats why they have voted with their feet and are not attending mass any more. Thousands of the younger generation especially have turned their back on the catholic church simply because they have seen through the tyranny of Rome and especially the way it handled the child sex abuse cases in Ireland. The bishops no longer have the power they once had and rightly so. There will always be the Holy Mary's pounding their chests and defending the indefensible but they are slowly on the way out. If the catholic church in Ireland ever wants to gain respect again then it had better firstly admit to the sins of the past !! But, it will never do that so its practically ruined .

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 02:13 PM EDT

  J Edgar was a repressed Homosexual who extorted his way into power.... He should have let Clyde pound on him and we all would have had more freedom....

• SeamusMor | Apr 07, 2012, 02:03 PM EDT

  The Vatican has the best intelligence service in the world, with eyes and ears in every nation, state, parish, and neighborhood. It predates J.Edgar Hoover by a couple thousand years!

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 02:00 PM EDT

  Condemn, eiriamach? And condemn women in particular? You toss out accusations rather freely. You have just used the power-play of "argument by authority" on me, eiriamach. Posting your credentials (debated this way and that) is not a logical argument. My points to you are in the form of an argument: Certain people have had a quest for hierarchy and domination over the developing human being in the womb. The quest for hierarchical domination of the Women-in-the-Womb has led to 53 million dead in one country alone. 53 million dead is a tragedy (who could possibly argue otherwise? I am open to it, but I will respond). Therefore, those who wish to be in power on this issue, and to usurp the wisdom of Mother Church, are wrong. Because Mother Church defends the Women-in-the-Womb, we need to listen to those views and listen very, very seriously. This deduction is not meant to condemn but instead to give hope. Undertand what is being done (53 million dead and counting) and why may change your views. So that one more developing human being does not fall victim to unclear thinking (and actions of power), I hope all will listen.

• Irishphotograph | Apr 07, 2012, 01:51 PM EDT

  When will the Irish People learn that Rome is the Spiritual enemy of Ireland. Its promotion of dead religion and man made teachings has Ireland covered in Spiritual darkness. If London is the political enemy of Ireland and Brussels the economic enemy of Ireland. Then take it that Rome is the Spiritual enemy of Ireland.

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 01:49 PM EDT

  Got it, kind of like being married for 20 years.....I plan on using this on my torturer.... thank you, I am one sick bastard.....

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 01:39 PM EDT

  McColgan, in brief, masochists are people who derive some kind of gratification (Freud would just call it sexual pleasure) from having pain inflicted on them. Sadists are people who derive pleasure from inflicting pain on others. Sadists and masochists are made for each other; many examples include the abused spouse who won't leave the abuser or the woman who confesses to using contraceptives and feels better when a male cleric gets a kick out of accusing her of "grave sin." Wouldn't it be great to live to see a world in which everyone takes pleasure in pleasure, rather than in pain?

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 01:27 PM EDT

  Sophium, you've made it quite clear that you are incapable of rational "debate." I've debated abortion-- the medical science, the politics, and the theology of it-- with several knowledgeable people since 1973 (occasionally on IC), but you do nothing except condemn. Condemnation of women is not an argument and it is offensive. You should expect that we will call it offensive when you engage in it.

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 01:17 PM EDT

  eiramach- apology accepted--- "masochistic inclinations"- does not funciton in my vocabulary???

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 01:04 PM EDT

  McColgan, I do not follow some of what you write because "your man" doesn't function in my vocabulary. I think you should take into account that we in the USA are currently targeted by an extensive and powerful "War against Women," at the hands of elected officials and lobbyists. To open up IC and find a perfectly gratuitous volley in that war, in a comment on an article that has nothing to do with women's reproductive issues, tries my patience. Please be aware that some of us at least have no masochistic inclinations and do not sit still for the kind of gratuitous, nasty, snide put-downs of women that Sophium and a few others routinely engage in, making IC a vehicle for their coordinated attacks on feminists, homosexuals, and other targets of RC hatred--yes, hatred--take a look at Sophium's language. If you were not contributing to that sort of attack, I apologize to you. But I also ask you to notice their strategy, become aware, and not engage it because it makes IC A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT FOR WOMEN. Call me a fanatic for reacting if you wish, but women are seriously lacking in integrity when we do not object.

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 01:01 PM EDT

  Offensive, eiriamach?? Ask the Women-in-the-Womb which is more offensive, my language to you or their rights, which are now usurped to the ultimate degree. Your views will not silence me nor will your carefully chosen words, meant to close down debate. The wombs of women who think like you are the most dangerous places in the world for the growing child. Think about it. Your rebellion against the Church is leading to the womb being so dangerous. And you rant against hierarchy. Any women who has had an abortion has exercised hierarchy in a powerfully destructive way. I am sorry for being so blunt. We may never interact again and I need to let you know what you are doing. Rant against the Church? Just remember the American figure: 53 million dead because of power and choice.

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 12:46 PM EDT

  eirimach, i said nothing regarding abortion, i merely defended your mans right to argue and he used what i see as valid points.... On abortion, i beleave in the US it is used as birth control.. that i beleave to be fact as such, your man had a good point....I am not looking to harm anyone.. On your reference to the FBI not being that bad... Well,FYI they operate 100% with snitches... You have obviously never been detained and told that you will be released when they feel like it... And you have never encountered the rightous milk toast little weasels they send around... I did not use your ignorance in that area to call you out..please operate likewise...

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 12:23 PM EDT

  McColgan, don't you realize the incalculable harm that kind of talk does? The pain and false guilt it can cause to a woman whose "child" was "born" too early to survive? The smear campaign of lying ad hominems it generates against women like me who argue for a sane abortion policy ("eiriamach, you have either had an abortion or encouraged one. Am I correct? Now you spend your time defending that grave sin"). I lack the words to describe such unspeakable attacks. Get off it--leave women alone about our reproductive lives, respect our moral autonomy, and quit discussing our bodies as though they are the wards of holy male celibates. It is SO offensive, and so irrelevant to the issue in the above article. Seriously!

• markday | Apr 07, 2012, 12:11 PM EDT

  Sophium: Dorothy Day was/is not only a saint, but a respected theologian in her own right. She well knew the distinction between the hierarchy and the people in the pews, thank you very much. And her analogy about Mother Church sometimes being a whore is right on. and as for your phrase: "Many here are quick to proclaim sound-bites of various ills without deeply investigating the story from the other side." -- this is my response: who are those proclaiming soundbytes and who is "the other side." Do you mean investigative journalists such as Jason Berry, author of the award winning books, Lead Us Not Into Temptatin, and Render Unto Rome--(about Vatican finance corruption)? Do you mean Fr. Tom Doyle or Richard Sipe, international experts on clerical sex abuse? And as for "the other side"--who do you mean? Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who left Milwaukee's church finances n disarray while protecting pedophile priests? Or Bill Donahue of the Catholic League, who wants American bishops to "lawyer up," and fight sex abuse victims tooth and nail? Let's have some documentation, please. Enough with your pious aphorisms and ad hominem arguments. And yes, watchdog is a good expression, used universally for whistle blowers and newspapers. It loses credibility when referring people in the pews spy on their priests and report them to Rome as they did with Tony Flannery.

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 12:11 PM EDT

  "The reality, too, is that there are people sitting in churches on a daily basis that are almost listening to hear you express an opinion that might be seen as dissenting and they will report you." Bishop Morris of Toowoomba was also well aware of letters sent directly to the Vatican complaining that he was not conservative enough for them. He knew that this small group was "disaffected by my leadership" and wanted him removed, despite his immense popularity and his efficient handling of sexual abuse cases for the diocese. A Church that depends upon a corps of temple police to maintain its ideological purity is better compared to the KGB or the SS or the CIA than to the FBI. I wonder how many disillusioned and hurt catholics have remained in the Church just because Fr. Flannery and others like him were listening to them and giving them a voice? The Vatican has silenced not just one man, but many people. Way to go, Benedict: Ein Volk, ein Kirche, ein Führer--One people, one Church, one leader!

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 12:03 PM EDT

  Celtic QueenUSA, once all of the Episcopal churches are closed down and become clothing stores (I am not making this up. I was married in a Methodist church and when I went back to visit the place of my nuptials, it had become......a clothing store! But of course.), we will take you back :)

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 12:01 PM EDT

  Thank you McColgan1492 for defending me......eiriamach, you have either had an abortion or encouraged one. Am I correct? Now you spend your time defending that grave sin by using such words as "oxymoron" when the truth of the matter is linked: "unborn" and "child." You make my point for me-----we need Mother Church. Everyone reading here, I have a question for you: With regard to children, whom would you rather be in charge of the decisions, Mother Church or eiriamach? The defense rests, Your Honor.

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 11:50 AM EDT

  eiriamach- dont get your panties in a bunch... your man was using it to establish the difference between the FBI and the Church in regards to tactics and motives....He made his point, well.... enough said... You come on like the lunatic.... relax....

• eiriamach | Apr 07, 2012, 11:28 AM EDT

  How does an article on censorship draw out the anti-abortion fanatics like "Sophium" running on about "unborn children" and other oxymorons. When an embryo or non-viable fetus is "born," we call that unfortunate event a miscarriage or spontaneous abortion. A "child" is an already-born human being and does not need to be "born" again unless its parents are 'born-again Christians'! There is no "child" in the womb, unless we change the way we calculate time and celebrate an infant's first birthday three months after its birth. This kind of perverse language belongs on the streets where fanatics march up and down with "right to life" signs and murderers bomb family planning clinics and shoot gynecologists who work in them. What is this kind of idiocy doing on Irish Central, and what in the world does it have to do with censorship of Redemptorist priests who discuss ordination of women and non-celibate men?

• CelticQueenUSA | Apr 07, 2012, 11:14 AM EDT

  I find the exchange between markday and Sophium strange. I was a RC who changed to Episcopal theory and I have never been happier. TheAnglican church is not oppressive like the feelings I had in the Catholic church under a Pope so unable to relate to the needs to today's Catholics. I recall being told that I was a child of God, a member of the body of the church, etc. but when I had ANY QUESTIONS, was told to not go there and follow what the Vatican dictated. Not for me!! The Episcopalian church is a perfect fit for me and they put the RC's to shame in my opinion. God help you people who never ask "why".

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 11:11 AM EDT

  You had to go for the "Kill" shot didn't you....OK, The FBI sucks, period....I'm out....

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 11:01 AM EDT

  McColgan1492, you are great....I mean that. We can debate here and retain a friendly spirit and for that I am most grateful, truly. Let us take the issue of abortion as just one case of what might be termed "Fear and Political Pressure." Would you rather unleash the unborn children to the power of the state? In American alone there have been.....wait for it......53 million dead as a result of this Holocaust. 53 million. Whose rights are being protected? Surely not the Women-in-the-Womb. The Catholic Church's Truth may seem oppressive.....but not for the 53 million who lost their lives in the name of "choice" and "freedom." We talked earlier of death and destruction. Can anyone here think of anything at all anywhere and any time on this planet where there was more death and destruction from one "cause" than this? Long live our Mother Church!

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 10:53 AM EDT

  The devil himself, you know my grandmother!..... likewise Sophium, you must not be blind to the similarities. Is it not the case that the Catholic Church has used Fear and Political Pressure to Control Public Policy in Ireland for Decades, at least. The FBI has done this for Decades in the US ,most recently the FBI has grown into a force which can detain and investigate citizens for little or no reason,re: the Patriot Act. A challenge to you would be to look at it from both sides as well, similar dynamics.

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 10:53 AM EDT

  Thank you, markday, for your response to my challenge. I urge you to study the Holy Father's encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, published on Christmas Day, 2005. To call his a "silent revolution,' to call the Holy Father "Ratzinger, and to stereotype the Vatican as a "watchdog" (a dog, come now, markday, you are better than that), is to misunderstand. Those at the praetorium misunderstood. Do you have the courage to see love where you now see bigotry? How wonderfully transformed you would be!

• markday | Apr 07, 2012, 10:42 AM EDT

  Sophium: one more point. You are confusing Mother Church with the pope, cardinals and bishops. Vatican II gave us a renewed definition of the church as the People of God. The hierarchy are not to dominate but to serve the people of God. The silent revolution of Ratzinger & co. has been to turn this around, which they have done sucessfully. Priests are supposed to be servants of their faith communities, not watchdogs. I am constantly taken aback by the theological ignorance of so called "conservative Catholics. And talk about narcissism--look at these old men tottering around in ornate dresses and purple slippers, exuding power instead of humility. shame on them! Another thing that gets me about some posters on this site--that some Catholic priests seem to be tottering on the edge of heresy--almost toppling over into the cesspool of Anglicanism. What a joke. The Anglicans / Episcopalians have a church governance for all of us to admire. If we had that accountability, we wouldn't be in this deepening crisis of clerical sex abuse made worse by the abuse of authority on all levels.

• forflann | Apr 07, 2012, 10:38 AM EDT

  The early Christians had it right, everything after the council of Nicea, led away from thoses principals.

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 10:35 AM EDT

  Markday, I now challenge you to make a vital distinction between The Church and the people in the church. Dorothy Day had it wrong when she failed to make that distinction. A challenge to you: Many here are quick to proclaim sound-bites of various ills without deeply investigating the story from the other side. And one more thing, those of you falling for this silly rhetoric comparing Mother Church and Hoover are falling for nonsense. You are better than that.

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 10:31 AM EDT

  Thanks, McColgan1492 for your civil response to my challenge. That sentence, "I will not serve," was said by Satan himself. My main point is that the hurting people of Ireland must be very careful now. They may end up taking their anger out on.....themselves. Death and destruction are not always evil, as we both know. Augustine's philosophy of the Just War is apt here.

• markday | Apr 07, 2012, 10:28 AM EDT

  Oops! I meant to write: POPE JOHN PAUL II, NOT POPE PAUL II. Sorry...

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 10:23 AM EDT

  Sophium-- not at all, my thoughts are quite ordinary and obvious, and not at all an original solution, just one of many.....Don't get too arrogant over the last 2000 years, how much death, destruction and abuse was handed out in the name of the "Truth"? That being said, who said that sentence, you stumped me..

• markday | Apr 07, 2012, 10:18 AM EDT

  Sophium: Mother church? That's fine, but don't forget what Dorothy Day, the saintly founder of the Catholic Worker used to say: "The Church is our Mother, but she can also be a whore." She is a whore when her leaders, as in the case of Pope Paul II, took money from Fr. Maciel, founder of the Legionnaires of Christ (a group very popular in Ireland) in exchange for the pope's silence when Maciel was proven a documented pedophile and father of several illegitimate children. The church is a whore when there is no financial accountability from the local parish collection box to the Vatican bank and construction contractors who get kickbacks and are backed by corrupt Vatican officials. The church is a whore when those pushing for needed reforms (like a healthy married preisthood and women's ordination) are excommunicated while the pedophiles run free, protected by diocesan and Vatican officials. The church is a whore when bishops practice serial prevarication (lying through their teeth) that would even make politicans and unscrupulous CEO's blush with embarassment. So, please, don't give us this "hierarchy" b.s. And during Holy Week, remember that Jesus came to serve, not to give orders. How quick are the "conservative" Catholics to judge others and to join the ugly chorus, shouting "crucify him."

• hermitTalker | Apr 07, 2012, 10:09 AM EDT

  As to Abp May of St Louis, as head of the US bishops conference, his board was shot down for advocating use of condoms to cut down on disease for homosexuals back decades ago. I never heard of his advocating gay rights to genital activity, not sure what "feminist origin" is in the comment on here. Precision is an absolute for intelligent discussion. typo below "irreformable."

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 10:08 AM EDT

  McColgan1492, how long have you been on this earth? Do you truly think that just because of your presence here, your thoughts are so gigantic as to now be truth, which opposes Truth which has reigned for over 2000 years? Many commenting here will not like that little word "reigned." Why? I will belong to no one. I will not serve. Who said that previous sentence?

• MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 07, 2012, 10:05 AM EDT

  How ironic.... The leaders of the Catholic Church and the FBI are very similar. Both organizatons are governed by frustrated self hating Homosexuals, destroying the many people they come in contact with or have any semblance of control over!! Hoover should have married Clyde, and Benedict should allow women on the alter and grown men to find adult partners! Problem solved!

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 10:04 AM EDT

  StevenStar, I urge you to look carefully at your words "know their own minds." You are right....and that is about all those who rebel know. They are stuck narcissistically "in their own minds." Yes, there has been abuse, but we must distinguish between Mother Church Herself and people who are sinners in the church. To confuse the two is to be confused "in one's own mind." My point: Do not reject Mother Church because of the sins of some within. You sow the seeds of your own destruction by that move.

• hermitTalker | Apr 07, 2012, 10:01 AM EDT

  We discussed that topic this morning at breakfast. I asked - suppose your company which had an employee who went public saying your are marketing the wrong product - with no proof to undermine your convictions? The current President of the USA fired one of his top generals for quesrioning his war policy. Hoover did spying and used his data to control the US presidents, not exactly good politics. Fianna Fail dumped De Valera's grandson as deputy leader for his stand on a matter of principle. Fr Tony'a stand on the ordination of women is dogma, ireformable it appears. His opinion of the scandal's handling is perfectly legitimate as a human being. Celibacy's value is also debatable, there is a lot of for and against (genital activity does not cure sexual desire for M or F married or single straight or homosexual). The latter two are not in that dogmatic league, nowhere close to it. What are the exact CDF charges. They did not hide their fears. As to you donal, are you in a totally unstructured Church that allows you to deny basic dogma, and do you have female priests, not female clergy/preachers as such?

• STEVENSTAR | Apr 07, 2012, 09:59 AM EDT

  More Important they go away and investigate all the sickening child sexual abuse that went on in the church all through the year and investigate that.. The catholic Church is a very sick place and needs reform.. thankfully over here in Ireland the majority of people are strong minded and know their own minds,... hence most of the churches are empty in the year 2012 ..

• Sophium | Apr 07, 2012, 09:46 AM EDT

  Fr. Egan can be as shocked as he would like.....but the fact remains that Mother Church has ruled definitively on women as priests. Ranting is something that Mother Church is used to. We just went through Good Friday, right? There was a wee bit of ranting against the truth and The Truth there. The Church is here in part for us to grow as persons and such growth is painful. The Church in Her wisdom sees the ranting for what it is, an opportunity for personal and spiritual growth by those who do the ranting.

• donal1951 | Apr 07, 2012, 09:34 AM EDT

  Nicoletta, That is exactly what I did. I felt that I would have been a hypocrite to take Holy Orders in the Roman Catholic Church. I am not asking the Roman Catholic Church to change. It is I who had to change.

• donal1951 | Apr 07, 2012, 09:32 AM EDT

  Amen to you Fr. Egan. The thinking that led to the silencing of Fr. Tony Flannery is why I, raised a Roman Catholic, am a priest, but not in that jurisdiction.

• PhlutiePhan | Apr 07, 2012, 09:32 AM EDT

  Oh, boo hoo! Pope Benedict is the "CEO" of a vast organization. The American Church is already moving women into positions as pastoral associates which are giving them the experience to be pastors. With the death of Pope Benedict, there are already preparations being made to split the Church wide open. Here in St. Louis, there are known priests who were silenced for their support of the Vatican under Archbishop John May who actively supported gay rights as well as those of a feminist origin. He in turn was silenced by the Vatican. The result was AB Raymond Burke who was then "gutted in turn" and replaced with a clone of AB May. The world continues to be revolving.

• Nicoletta | Apr 07, 2012, 09:27 AM EDT

  And the Irish Central rubs its hands in glee at the opportunity to publish yet another anti-Catholic article. Look, the Catholic Church is hierarchical, these priests know that. So now they are dissenting from Church teaching and we are expected to feel sympathy for them? If they don't like it they can always cross over to the Church of Ireland/England or wherever, where they can think whatsoever they like and feel at home.