27 Comments

• merefalow | Feb 06, 2012, 06:47 PM EST

  to loosen the priests grip,would be so good for Ireland.

• eiriamach | Feb 06, 2012, 05:50 PM EST

  Brennanirish, you're right about historical footnotes. The Vatican has used a nuanced moral relativism to try to salvage its own magisterium from the judgment of history (on slavery, for instance). At the same time, however, the word "relativism" is one of Benedict XVI's favorite derogatory terms to shoot at critics. IC Catholic posters have erroneously labeled me a "relativist" more times than I've been labeled with that other four-letter word in the Catholic apologists' arsenal: "feminist" (used by them to inspire horror of women who believe in equality). I am not a relativist. I continue to maintain that moral principles which transcend eras and cultures can provide objective basis for moral judgments. It's outrageously funny, or comically outrageous, to see Catholic Church apologists falling on their own verbal swords.

• Curitiba | Feb 06, 2012, 05:09 PM EST

  You summed it up there nicely, Tooreenagrena 0717

• irishpjk | Feb 06, 2012, 04:55 PM EST

  Gearoid4 on Feb 6 2012 01.18 posted the best comment I think everyone should read it

• jamieLM | Feb 06, 2012, 01:18 PM EST

  Actions speak louder than words.

• esatdigiwank | Feb 06, 2012, 12:53 PM EST

  So many simpering apologists for Rottweiler and his empire here today. Can it be the reason the Vatican has relations with so many countries is that banks in 160 countries plus the Vatican enjoy mutually screwing one another ha ha.

• Gearoid4 | Feb 06, 2012, 11:44 AM EST

  @Eiriamach, all right thinking people are disgusted by the terrible crimes of a minority of priests or religious who used their positions of authority to abuse children. Anyone who cares about the future of the Church has a stake in seeing this terrible scourge forthrightly dealt with by ecclesial and civil authorities with all the powers at their command. But some will use the present Church difficulties as a cover for their own "reform" agenda which is nothing more than liberalizing core teachings on subjects like marriage, abortion, sexuality or celibacy. The upcoming conference in Rome in relation to maximizing the Church's response to the sex-abuse scandals, has been described by one of the Irish victims of such a crime, namely Marie Collins, as a very positive sign that the collective Catholic response is moving in the right direction. No other organization of similar standing which is involved with children, can claim to to have taken such unprecedented steps. @Brennanirish, You say that the Church did little to help the Irish people. Well, I would advise you to read a decent history book that deals with Ireland over the centuries. You will find that the Catholic Church made an inestimable contribution to the social/health care and education of the Irish people through Her charitable foundations, hospitals and schools. Many thousands of Irish men and women willingly took holy orders to serve at home or in missions overseas with little personal gain for themselves. Irish people suffered the privations of penal times to keep their Faith alive. Experts of the medieval period contest the letter that supposedly Pope Adrian V1 wrote to the English King Henry 11 granting him sovereignty in Ireland in the 12th century. It has been declared a forgery by some. Anyway Henry went beyond the remit given to him in the letter "Laudabiliter".

• brennanirish | Feb 06, 2012, 08:13 AM EST

  The Vatican understands, better than you and I, that moral judgements, of terrible crimes, are only meaningful in the present. Over time, all things are to be judged in the, "context of the times people lived in". Unfortunately, all historical moral injustice, becomes relative to the times in which they occurred. The Church, as a historcial institution, has benefitted greatly by the mere passage ofm time. Todays crimes will simply become historical footnotes like so many other crimes in centuries past. The Catholic Church exploited the, "worst of historical times", in Ireland for its benefit and did little, hisotrically to help the Irish in these times. Ultimately, the British-Irish conflict was started by the only British POPE (Adrian), who gave Ireland to Britian by papal edict......

• Tooreenagrena | Feb 06, 2012, 07:17 AM EST

  Without the strength and structure the Church gave the Irish people in the worst of historical times, they would have gone under. A little balance would be nice.

• eiriamach | Feb 06, 2012, 06:29 AM EST

  Jacersagain writes, "it is purely their atheistic hatred of the Vatican that caused this huge mistake." More relativist truth-avoidance behavior, self-blinded denial of reality, shoddy ad hominem thinking! Ideologues are not the people who cite facts, Curitiba; they are the people who throw nasty labels around, as you do, when they do not have a rational argument to offer in support of their position.

• eiriamach | Feb 06, 2012, 06:08 AM EST

  Elsewhere on IC there are still Catholics screaming about the "relativism" of people like me, who oppose the Vatican's political power grabs and advocate separation of church and state. And here, Irishpjk writes, "sure there were some bad priests, bishops and nuns, but they are a reflection of the society that they grew up in." This statement is pure moral relativism as a jesuitical art form, used to deny moral responsibility for sexual abuse of children in the Roman Catholic Church, to blame it on "the society" or some other amorphous outside force, rather than on the priests, the real human beings, who raped children! So to those self-blinded Catholics who assume that everyone who objects to the rape of children by priests is a "godless," "secularist" "moral relativist," I say try to clean up your shoddy, sloppy, illogical thinking and take a good hard look at who the moral relativists really are-- you'll need a mirror for that! When you deny an obvious truth, you do damage to your ability to discern the truth. Vatican interference in Irish governance has cost the Irish people endless pain and many millions of Euro. The Irish can't AFFORD an embassy to the Vatican, not now and not for a long time!

• JOHNTOBIN | Feb 06, 2012, 05:12 AM EST

  Over one hundred and sixty nations of the world have diplomatic relations with the Vatican.They must think it worthwhile to do so.

• stephen1553 | Feb 05, 2012, 08:15 PM EST

  there is something weird about being a speaker for God. It seems to make people think they are God themselves and do anything they want to do................5 years ago my Jewish Wife's Rabbi was kicked out of his job despite a lifetime contract. He not only had sex with a woman he was counseling, but also got her pregnant. Need I sday more?

• stephen1553 | Feb 05, 2012, 05:46 PM EST

  Who would want to be associated with the church of the endless hidden molestation of children, M & F..................It appears IC does not want us putting links on their blog, its their right, but why dont readers go google "vatican hides rape of nuns"....................Is there no crime the church hasnt committed or hidden?

• jacersagain | Feb 05, 2012, 05:30 PM EST

  Lookit - Enda Kenny is now realising what a terrible gaffe it was to cede to pressure from atheists Gilmore and Quinn of the Labour Party to close the Holy See Embassy. The whole of the world's Diplomatic Corps has told him it was a huge mistake. No wonder he says it can be reviewed. Gilmore and his kind have no leg to stand on in this decision - it is purely their atheistic hatred of the Vatican that caused this huge mistake. Enda and friends should ensure it's put right. We Irish should make sure it's put right and vote Gilmore and Quinn out and into oblivion.

• Curitiba | Feb 05, 2012, 05:09 PM EST

  Quite right, irishpjk. The modern Irish person seems to be rushing towards atheism like one might rush out into a motorway in rush hour in order to outdo every other Western country in appearing right-on and PC, just as everybody else is coming to their senses and quietly discarding these discredited ideologies.

• irishpjk | Feb 05, 2012, 03:15 PM EST

  I have come to the conclusion that too many Irish people have forgotten or never learned their history, also that the present government will rue the day they made their decision to give a back hand to all Irish Catholics and our church. The people of Ireland are falling for the hype about how the church ruined Ireland. It could be the other way around, sure there were some bad priests, bishops and nuns, but they are a reflection of the society that they grew up in. Where did all the pregnant girls come from? Was there any incest involved? Was it only the priests that molested young boys? Could it be that there is plenty of guilt to go around and by laying it all on the church many of our people feel better? Today we forget about the education our people got from nuns, priests and brothers. The pregnant girls kicked out of their home’s and taken in by the nuns, the hospitals where nuns spent many long hours nursing and caring for the sick poor. I could go on and on but if you have not got the message by now I can’t help you get it. Last comment I find much anti American sentiment here, Why? Another friend who reached out to help the Irish, wake up and realize who your true friends came from.

• CaptainCon | Feb 05, 2012, 03:12 PM EST

  Bunch of self-important and simultaneously irrelevant gobshytes. There was no such 'holy war' in cabinet over raping the poor to increase the wealth of the guaranteed rich I notice nor over the surrender of Irish sovereignty to to the European Central Bank and the IMF. Bunch of clowns.

• supersurvivor77 | Feb 05, 2012, 02:30 PM EST

  CATHOLICABUSESURVIVORSNI.COM--- the decision was taken by a soveriegn goverment and there can be no uturn ever, the unbiblical roman catholic church must be put out of all state affairs as the damage they cause the goverment will have to pay for,they raped and torture the children of ireland and will never change global dominance is all they desire and theyll spare no-one to achieve this nazi goal, get out stay out.

• rugbyplayer | Feb 05, 2012, 01:54 PM EST

  Enda Kenney, do not five into Fine Gael's requests for Ireland to reopen its Vatican Embassy. The Vatican has shown itself especially under Benedict XVI to be the world's chief promoter of slander and even hatred against Gays, same sex marriage, contraception, women's reproductive rights, stem cell research and even open hostility toward politicians who do not agree with its doctrinal and arcane views.

• CelticQueenUSA | Feb 05, 2012, 01:40 PM EST

  I am a firm believer in Seperation of church and state. There has been enough interference already. They can send their decrees from Rome.

• lokionline | Feb 05, 2012, 12:45 PM EST

  The request for the Vatican to allow diplomats to Italy to share the fine embassy building in Rome seems eminently reasonable.
  
  This compromise would make all parties to this squabble sound a little more like adults and lot less like children arguing over who has a right to play in what sandbox.

• Gearoid4 | Feb 05, 2012, 12:14 PM EST

  To close the Vatican embassy and transfer the ambassador to the Holy See to the residence of the Italian mission was an ideological decision taken by Eamonn Gilmore. It was the case of the Labour tail wagging the Fine Gael dog. The economic explanation does not hold water, as there are many other missions of much less importance, being kept open, which are not exactly money-spinners. I hope that the government reviews it's decision and re-establishes it's mission to the Holy See where it belongs.

• SeamusMartin | Feb 05, 2012, 11:13 AM EST

  The two previous commenters have said all I believe. Keep it closed!

• Searlit | Feb 05, 2012, 11:07 AM EST

  Enda Kenny made a bold move. Everything he did was right on this, for many reasons. I hope he doesn't back down.

• haasny007 | Feb 05, 2012, 10:28 AM EST

  It's an absolute waste of money to have two separate embassies in the city of Rome. Most countries have only one embassy serving both Italy and the Vatican. If I was an Irish taxpayer I would have demanded a long time ago to close one of the two. It's up to the government to decide which of the two countries is more important, but I would say it's Italy as fellow EU country.

• esatdigiwank | Feb 05, 2012, 08:49 AM EST

  FG have truly exposed what they are. No full separation of church and State if they have their way. Lots of countries don't have Vatican embassies. I'd ignore what the 'Sindo newspaper says. Lets have a collapse of Govt. Another election is urgently wanted.