Fine Gael members to resist liberalization of Irish abortion laws

According to woundedknee a women with a troubled pregnancy must die giving birth to save the baby and the three kids at home will be motherless.The hypocrisy of the evangelical right and their faux Christianity

WoundedKnee should take a course in obstetrics or spend half a lifetime as a woman; then maybe he'd be less confident about this complex issue. I'm not an MD, so I was pleased to see today's NY Times editorial basically agreeing with what I wrote at 11:45 Jul 24, below. Opposing an extreme anti-abortion law in Arizona, the Times editors write, "The overwhelming number of abortions occur well before 20 weeks; later abortions most often involve severely troubled pregnancies that pose risks to a woman’s health or life. A woman can develop life- or health-threatening medical problems late in her pregnancy. And because fetal abnormalities often cannot be diagnosed before 20 weeks, the new laws [that prohibit abortion after 18 weeks] may leave women feeling rushed to have abortions before then. Or, if they miss that window, they may be forced to wait out a dangerous pregnancy or to deliver a child who will quickly die."

WoundedKnee has retired verbally beaten again.

Only 1.5 % of abortions in the US happen in the third trimester. And delivery in the 8th month is not called abortion; it's called premature birth. Where does WoundedKnee get such lies? Late evacuation of the uterus is usually a physician's call. If hospital emergency rooms are not prepared for it, then pregnant teens and pre-teens, who are particularly susceptible to eclampsia (if untreated, it kills both the pregnant woman and the fetus) will die. Many women carrying abnormal fetuses that cannot survive will die with their bodies trying to abort spontaneously, which does not always happen but sometimes needs medical help. The "pro-lifers" let infantile fantasies about lovely, normal babies dominate their fanatic opposition to abortion, but the reality of pregnancy is sometimes very different, and we must be prepared to deal realistically with such cases.

WoundedKnee you "expect states like Cal. Or. and N.J are OK with trimester abortions" but you offer no proof.Maybe if you gave some proof your post would have credibility. The only country where trimester abortions take place is China.

seanomel: I can understand why you would find it difficult to believe, but it is the reality in some states, as in the entire country of Canada, as far as I know. The US Supreme Court has slowly given states more powers to regulate abortion, inching away from the extreme Roe V Wade judgment, so there are many states where late-term cannot be carried out. There would be others where it is theoretically permitted, but you could never find a practitioner (I won't say doctor) to carry it out. But there are lots of states where it can. I live in a pro-life state, but I suspect that states like New Jersey, Oregon, California etc are quite OK with third trimester abortions. The wikipedia article on this--look for "Late termination of pregnancy" on wikiipedia--gives a good overview.

WoundedKnee I find it difficult to believe that abortion on demand at eight months is available anywhere. Australia's law was brought about under similar circumstances to Roe V Wade

I won't claim any knowledge of the Australian case, but I can tell seanomel that here in the US abortion on demand, at any stage of the pregnancy, is perfectly legal under Roe V Wade. And while in large areas of the country that is just a theoretical availability--in practice you won't find anyone willing to carry out the abortion--in many areas of the West Coast and NorthEast a woman can indeed get an abortion at eight months.

I doubt if "abortion on demand" is the issue. In most countries Abortions are only available under a certain set of laws.Personally I do not agree with abortion in most cases but I do not have the right to interfere in the "moral dilemmas" of others.We all have to live with our own conscience and forcing others to accept or principles is undemocratic.

Whether or not we agree with the pro-life policy of the largest political party in the the Irish state, we live in a country whose Declaration of Independence states, "... that all men are created equal...". Shoul the term "created equal" now be changed to "born equal" in order to satisfy those who support abortion on demand?

Here's how to settle the issue once and forever. Pass a law requiring that, at birth, every female's abdomen must be marked indelibly "Property of the state, subject to coercion by Irish law." But wait: you believe in equality under the law, right? Therefore, you'll apply the same indelible property marker to every newborn male's penis as well. And you'll follow through with laws dictating what males may and may not do with their genitalia. Unleash your "moral" imaginations to invent some penis laws to go along with your womb laws. Will that be enough "moral" control finally? Why should only women be deprived of free will for the sake of "morality"? Let's see how men react to laws that control their private parts. I confidently predict that both sexes will finally experience true sexual pleasure because they will finally be completely free of the moral consequences of sex. There cannot be any moral consequences because when you deprive people of control over their own sex organs, they cannot make immoral reproductive choices-- or moral reproductive choices either. Because they cannot make CHOICES at all. And when you eliminate choice, the words "moral" and "immoral" no longer apply.

Fine Gael were fine with the Nurse Cadden types performing abortions on the rich and famous in the fifties(let's keep it our secret) and all the time the middle class and poor were off to england to give birth and giveaway their babes,not much has changed.

Legalizing abortion does not make the number of abortions go up. It makes the number of dead women go down. Grow rue, ladies. Make a tea with 1 oz in a cup of hot water, take 4 times daily as soon as the pregnancy test shows positive. Expect a hard heavy period, that's the induced miscarriage. Do not go get a d&c at the local illegal. Go to England, go to France.

Seamnor's 40 year old biology book spoke to the biases of its time and was inaccurate even then. LIFE (in some form) begins at the moment of generation of a sperm - and probably egg - but not HUMAN life or these fanatics would be pushing for legal penalties on masturbation. Even the Catholic church once reasonably ruled that HUMAN life began at the "quickening" (when the fetus starts to move of its own volition - to kick). The POTENTIAL for human life starts at conception. What a coincidence that now that the church has abandoned that standard for flightier fancies based on the possible scientific ability to keep tissue "alive" outside "natural" circumstances, scientific evidence now gives validity to the old position: the "Quickening" is about the time - the end of the first trimester of gestation - that the ganglia of the brain start to come together and the basis of thought (the only rational basis for recognizing human life - we almost ALL now recognize the *end* of human life is with "brain death"!) begins. Sadly, those who place their personal beliefs and fancies over any and all evidence to the contrary will still try to impose their personal superstitions on the rest of suffering humanity - but history is not on their side. Ireland will be far better off (and the Catholic church will be far more effective ministering to their fold and holding ON to it) when they abandon unsupportable superstition and join at least the 20th if not the 21st century. Ireland long ago committed to the European ideal (the EEC is now at the stage the U.S. was under the Articles of Confederation prior to our current Constitution: slowly struggling toward becoming a major unified nation. They have far too much to lose by refusing to honor the mandates of the European Court of Human Rights they are committed to - especially when only blind superstition, contradicted by all the actual evidence, stands in the way...no matter how vocal the sincere but uneducated fanatics remain.

I'm reminded of a quote in the biology book I had for a course at a liberal college (under the G.I. Bill) in Long Island in the late 70s: "Life begins at the moment of conception". I agree with these Fine Gael T.D.s, Ian Paisley, Adelia King (niece of the famous civil rights leaded) and everyone else who would protect the lives of the most vulnerable human creatures.