130 Comments

• jacersagain | Dec 17, 2011, 07:46 PM EST

  This has been an interesting debate to follow... one which I stayed out of 'til ‘cos I knew it would have streams of anti-Catholic abuse posted and a few die-hard faithful Catholics rightfully illuminating the sadly lacking knowledge of the abusers. The debate also has the internecine characteristics of people of both sides and of ‘in-betweeners’ displaying doubts as to the rightness or wrongness of each others’ points... the “I know better”... or the “maybe I’m not so sure now” crowds. My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that not one single RCC attacker has made a single sensible or spiritual reasoning for anyone not to be a member of the true RCC. And I will take this liberty to tell you why.... The poster going by the name of mairint said the most sensibly truthful thing in this whole debate. People like Geroid4, or our oul’ fervent Catholic friend George Dillon, doesn’t need to back up or put a patch on what mairint said. People should re-read what mairint posted... it speaks the whole truth of what many are seeking or missing. Find it in the huge truth of words of what mairint posted from Australia on Dec 13th at 7.54pm EST. Re-read that post. May our God be with you as you do...

• barneyjo | Dec 16, 2011, 06:56 PM EST

  @GeorgeDillon - Attack? what attack? My last post was an earnest attempt that I do actually have a rationale for thinking the way I do about my faith and my church. The use of upper-case characters is to underpin those feelings that have been aroused by the scandals that have come to light in a Body of which I have been a life long member. That is not to say that I cannot and do not take issue with your posts in their tone and content. You have your view of the world and that is fine; but it is not necessarily and totally my view also. The assertion "I'm right, you're wrong - get over it" will not assuage the concerns of many who are in your own words "blinded by hate" If there are those who are blinded by hate for the church, then there is a reason for that which is not so simplistic as you might suggest. In my over emphasis of my anger over the treatment of clerical abuse victims by the church, I seek to articulate a viewpoint; MY viewpoint which has been informed by own thought and reflection based on evidence which has come to light. I do not seek to attack anyone. I cnnnot attack you as I have never walked in your shoes in your life. I have long since learned the lesson that "Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread" but for myself only, and for no-one else!!

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 15, 2011, 03:37 PM EST

  barneyjo: That is a very unfair and dishonest attack on me, but I will not respond in kind. I did not have you in mind when referring to the bigoted and vulgar and downright liars who have filled these columns. People like the oposter celticfour who alleges that the church charges 50 grand for a wedding. People like that are imbeciles, blinded by hate, and there are lots more posting here. You on the other hand appear to be a member of the Catholic faithful who has been horrified by the actions of some Catholic clergy and scandalized by the failure of those in authority to excise these malefactors from the body of the Church and see to it that they never again had a chance to prey on the innocent. That perhaps is a fair description of you--it is certainly a description of me.

• warlocks | Dec 15, 2011, 01:18 AM EST

  Maybe its High Time the Roman Catholic Church leave Ireland.and Bishop Martin also. he has some nerve . We have put up with the likes of his kind long enough. We need to bring back the Church of Ireland and God . Not the Political Corrupt money Mad Vipers & Sinners of the Vatican.

• barneyjo | Dec 14, 2011, 06:13 PM EST

  @GeorgeDillon - I know that I, for one, am neither a Bigot,nor am I vulgar, as I know I would never seek to be. And no matter how many times you say that I am, I still will be neither bigoted or vulgar. In the light of what I now know about what was done within the Catholic Church, here in Ireland, and elsewhere to deliberately conceal the existence of broken lives,broken minds, broken bodies, and broken souls ostensibly in MY NAME, you will not be surprised that I have taken a long hard look at myself and my attitudes to my faith. I am still a Catholic; a practicing catholic; BUT ONE WHO IS TOTALLY SCANDALISED AND AFFRONTED BY THE LIES, DECEIT AND DOUBLE STANDARDS SHOWN BY THOSE IN AUTHORITY, WHO, EVEN YET REMAIN IN DENIAL ABOUT THE DAMAGE DONE TO COUNTLESS PEOPLE THROUGH THEIR MINISTRY. And when I reflect on this like now, IT MAKES ME VERY ANGRY TO THINK THAT SO MANY CLERICS TOOK LICENCE UPON THEMSELVES, OSTENSIBLY IN MY NAME (and yours) TO SHIELD THIS UNSPEAKABLE HORROR FROM SIGHT. Now, if you wish to gloss my anger as bigotry and vulgarity, hey thats fine; go ahead. However do so in the knowledge that it will not change or alter what has happend. And that is that God has and is calling "time" on the clerical Catholic Church and those in stewardship over it. And knowing what I know now, I can only welcome that!!!!

• eiriamach | Dec 14, 2011, 06:08 PM EST

  Irish Catholics who are interested in a less Roman, more Celtic Church might find out about the ACP plans. It's not clear to me yet, but the priests seem to be moving in the direction of less "authority" and hierarchy in church structure and more Christianity. From the ACP web site, 4 Nov. 2011, "Assembly of the Irish Church": "At a meeting of the leadership team of the ACP on November 3rd we decided that we would initiate the process of organising an Assembly of the Irish Church. It will take place at a Dublin venue on May 1st next. We will welcome the cooperation of other groups, lay or religious, in this project. If you, as an individual or representing some group, would like to be involved would you please contact us. We aim to meet with interested parties sometime in January to plan the details of the event."

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 14, 2011, 04:13 PM EST

  joemcullough: "Bring back the Celtic church!" --So why don't you and others like you start a Celtic Church? Instead of obsessing about the Catholic Church. And I promise you we Catholics won't obsess about your Celtic Church.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 14, 2011, 04:10 PM EST

  mairint: "It is hard to understand how rude- even dirty- language spills from so many of you. You do not sound intelligent Just snotty nosed and hate filled". Great post. What can we expect from bigots but bigotry, vulgarity and hate.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 14, 2011, 04:07 PM EST

  celticfour: "No more five thousand euro first Communions? No more fifty thousand euro weddings?" If you're claiming that Catholic priests charge these fees you're not just a liar, you're a lunatic.

• culchiewoman | Dec 14, 2011, 12:06 PM EST

  @mairint: just another Church apologist on the issue of the raping and abuse (torture) of children, part of the misled 'sheeple' -- no worries, your day will come and perhaps somehow you'll manage to pull your head out of either the sand or your arse. Hope it's not too late for you.

• culchiewoman | Dec 14, 2011, 12:04 PM EST

  Would that they could leave. But the Dublin diocese took away the only legal process by which former Catholics could irrevocably depart the church. So what now, Martin?

• barneyjo | Dec 14, 2011, 05:38 AM EST

  @mairint - "The ingratitude and the sleep of my ministers increase the agony for me. They badly respond to my love! The greater torment for me is that these people add their contempt to their indifference and disbelief. How many times my wrath was to strike them like lightning, but I was stopped by the angels and the souls who love me" (Taken from the Apparitions of Padre (Now Saint) Pio of Pietrelcina)Was he one of the "MOB" as well???

• helmet365 | Dec 14, 2011, 05:12 AM EST

  Iam for the the latter.

• helmet365 | Dec 13, 2011, 10:19 PM EST

  Generally the Trad catholic has a closed mind and incapable of new thought, stuck in an ancient world of fear and guilt. That is the state of mind the church wants you to be in for control. New church menbers will have a mind of their own paticularly the young and not as enslaved. Things are improving. It will require more time for these Trad catholic fossils (clerics an laity) to move on. Darwins theory of evolution in action.

• helmet365 | Dec 13, 2011, 09:33 PM EST

  Trad catholic you say and the Church is doing well in many places around the world. Africa of course is the main area where you insist on your no contraception rules and watch the innocent die in the thousands from aids. You must be proud of yourselves. They will wake up some day to the reality you are only spitting on their path. Follow the sheep and you will become enslaved.

• mairint | Dec 13, 2011, 07:54 PM EST

  As a Trad Catholic (in Australia)I fully agree with Archbishop Martin. Ireland is blessed to have such a strong, brave warrior at the helm. The Church is growing in many places around the world with thousands of educated young people finding the treasure of the faith which so many of you Irish are thrashing. Well folks, remember the mob who spat on Jesus as he carried His cross to Calvary? You are right there in their midst. It is hard to understand how rude- even dirty- language spills from so many of you. You do not sound intelligent Just snotty nosed and hate filled. The old hackney of 'sex abuse' (which tragically abounds through every walk of life) being your excuse for your bad behaviour, is no reason for you to throw away the Faith unless you only went to Church for outward appearances. How shallow! The True Faith comes from your heart and mind to God. It saddens me to see so many at weddings in Ireland coolly walk up to receive the Body of Christ in Holy Communion when they do not darken the door of the church normally. I admit many had a sheepish look about their faces. Just embarrassed and afraid of what others might think if they stayed in their seat. Doesn't matter what God thinks? Good on you Archbishop Martin and God bless you and all the faithful priests who have to put up with such abuse in Ireland. May God protect you from the mob. As we see the modern trends eliminated from the Mass and the reverend celebrations returning, the peace of the Holy Sacrifice will bear fruit once again. Some of you haters might even find your way back. How welcoming Jesus will be then.

• helmet365 | Dec 13, 2011, 05:32 PM EST

  In the home of the R C Church, Italy,the people only go to Church at Easter and Christmas. The Archbishop is only trying to gain the control and power returned to the Church which was lost with recent events. Ignore him and enjoy the freedom which our forfathers did not have. Twice a year Church is plenty.

• Gearoid4 | Dec 13, 2011, 04:47 PM EST

  The so called "Celtic" Church was a bit of a myth captainCon as most of the experts in the early period of Irish Christianity will tell you. It was the fabricated product of some protestant divines after the reformation to make it look like their movement was a continuation of the Christianity which was thriving in these Islands in the early period. There was no schism with Rome during this time as there was only one universal Church. The so-called differences were a matter of custom, different datings for Easter and religious hairstyles which the great Synod of Whitby did much to sort out in 664 AD. The Indigenous Christians of these Islands and Rome believed in the same core Christian beliefs and doctrines and Marian devotion was strong in the Irish Church. Famous Irish Missals of the early Christian centuries like the Stowe example from the 8th century reveal that the local Church followed an order of Mass very similar to that celebrated on the Continent.

• barneyjo | Dec 13, 2011, 03:57 PM EST

  "but Martin says the church will expect a far fuller commitment in the future" And so will the laity my Lord Bishop, so too will the LaITY!!!!!

• HalfMayo | Dec 13, 2011, 03:31 PM EST

  The Catholic Church taught me only priests and deacons could touch a consecrated host with their hands and only males could become a priest or deacon; Latin was the language of the Mass; the Holy Days of Obligation were still holy whether the fell on a Saturday, Monday, or any other weekday; no meat was to be eaten on Fridays any time of the year; plus other things which resulted in a MORTAL SIN. Now all these teachings are archaic and fallen to the wayside. I have not given up my Catholic Faith, only the modern Catholic Church. With the loss of the lessons of my childhood, the Catholic Church as left me!

• joemccullough | Dec 13, 2011, 03:15 PM EST

  Martin should learn the difference between lapsed and disaffected. Maybe I go to the weddings and baptisms to participate in family events. These bullies suggest that the only two choices are Catholicism and Atheism. Laughable. Bring back the Celtic church! Enough of these threats from Roman lackeys.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 13, 2011, 02:53 PM EST

  sirpeter: "Parents/People don't get much of a choice when it comes to church rituals.They are forced into and forced to go to these church rituals". More stupidity from The Biggest Dope in Ireland. No one is forced to have their children baptized, you stupid ape. You're an imbecile. A stupid bigot and racist, too, but I guess everyone knows that. R

• CaptainCon | Dec 13, 2011, 06:02 AM EST

  Interesting point raised there about the difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the 'Celtic' Catholic Church which were and are two very different beasts. As I understand it the RCC effectively took over the Irish Church around the eleventh century and ran it direct from Rome when the Irish Church showed a steady refusal to adapt to the new rules about priests not marrying and the consequent implications for property in heritance and so on. It does make you think although not a christian myself that the return of the Irish church would be a good thing and like much of Irish culture the presence of that church is buried somewhere under adopted or forced culture and hidden beneath layers of foreign compulsion much like our prechristian heritage. It annoys the hell out of me to hear Roman Catholics speak of their church as 'part of Irish tradition'- only if you are in the habit of regarding the Black and Tans as part of 'Irish tradition' as well. To hell with corrupt Rome if you'll excuse the temporary christian pun.

• sirpeter | Dec 13, 2011, 03:49 AM EST

  Parents/People don't get much of a choice when it comes to church rituals.They are forced into and forced to go to these church rituals.Baptism,Holy Communion,Confirmation, Marriage and Funerals all involve other people.Attending Mass is individual.It's easier to get out of going.The last Marriage ritual I was at a few weeks ago cost me and my wife close to a €1000 and we didn't even want to be there.It wasn't that weren't mature enough to walk away.We just didn't have a good enough excuse not to go.

• warlocks | Dec 13, 2011, 02:05 AM EST

  Not a Good time for the Catholic Church to get picky ,when people are leaving the church. The church has no one to blame but the church . they are the one who is Guilty of Sin & has stuck its head in the sand.hoping things would correct it self. they still don't get it ! the only thing the Vatican cares about is How much Money can we take in. Money is their God ! Wake up Catholics we have been snookered too long time for a complete church overhaul starting from the Top Fat Cows in the Vatican.

• CaptainCon | Dec 13, 2011, 02:00 AM EST

  'Stone age conservatives ally themselves with corrupt authority figures' shocker. I see this thread has lured out some of those who would be better off living in the hills of Pakistan with the Taliban with whom they have much in common.

• OBPiper | Dec 13, 2011, 12:22 AM EST

  I wish that all were so simple. I'd like to know why the Celtic Church shouldn't resurface and replace the Roman Church. I'd like to know why all the malecentricity and celibacy and the hypocricy over homosexuality. I'd like to see the guid Father speak about spiritual practice outside of the brief weekly worship setting. I certainly hope that it's the author's misstake, and nae the guid father's, which confuses spirituality with "rituals".

• seamus60 | Dec 12, 2011, 07:58 PM EST

  Its not all bad news folks as aperantely all new catholic churchs are to be constructed round in shape. Finally no where for the horny priests or bishops to corner the alter boys.

• peterson | Dec 12, 2011, 07:25 PM EST

  When Christ returns, the non believers will probably say ---WOW - I really screwed up !! This younger generation is really screwed up anyway !!

• barneyjo | Dec 12, 2011, 07:25 PM EST

  Oh dear - this sounds for all the world like an admission of at least partial defeat. I had hoped that Archbishop Martin was one Cleric who DID walk "In the shoes of the Fisherman" but to hear him say this is so depressing. A half loaf better than no bread??

• CaptainCon | Dec 12, 2011, 06:09 PM EST

  Georgie has his religion mixed up with his politics. He also knows little about current attendance figures in Irish churches which have fallen off a cliff in the last ten to fifteen years. The main mass at the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin on Sundays has plenty of bumroom and those who do attend are generally pensioners. That is not the fault of those who describe themselves as catholics but those who describe themselves as moral and ethical leaders in the Roman Catholic Church and who are self-evidently anything but.

• phinsman | Dec 12, 2011, 06:06 PM EST

  I grew up Catholic and had no problem leaving the church when I went off to college... my logical brain makes me a significant non-believer. If there is no proof that a supreme being exists, I can't think it is accurate. In my mind, Christianity is just as mythological as Irish, Greek, Roman, Scandinavian and other Mythologies. However, I am not judgmental of those who are believers... it is everyone's personal choice to decide if they believe or not.

• joanxis | Dec 12, 2011, 05:20 PM EST

  Oh, Georgie Boy,I do love to get you going, but your hateful rant back at me makes absolutely no sense. I didn't criticize you about your Catholic faith - just the way you treat people on this blog. And Georgie Boy, I do dare. Oh and my forfathers on my mother's side were all Catholics. With or without me, I'm here to stay - a Catholic.

• eiriamach | Dec 12, 2011, 04:34 PM EST

  GeorgeDillon, who is the "us" you'd like me to "leave alone"? If you are presuming to speak for all IC visitors, we'll need to take a vote on that appointment, for sure. Like the OWS protestors, I think "we" can get along just fine without any monitors, censors, blockers, gatekeepers, and others like you and the Archbishop, who try to silence or drive out those whose comments you'd rather not read.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 12, 2011, 04:25 PM EST

  I suspect a lot of the anti-Catholic bigots who crow over supposedly low attendance at Mass never have been inside a Catholic Church. The fact is that, while numbers attending in both Ireland and here are not what they once were, they are by no means catastrophically low. I was impressed by the large attendance at Athlone Cathedral the last time I was in Ireland, just a few months ago. And there were lots of young families. What the Bible Bigots don't understand is that no one was more grieved by the despicable crimes of some priests than were the Catholic faithful themselves. However, I never confused the current generation of priests with the priests who ministered to my forefathers at the risk of torture and murder by English Protestants. The Church must suffer again to expiate the dreadful acts of those who betrayed us and did untold harm to the innocent.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 12, 2011, 04:16 PM EST

  joanxis: How dare you criticize me, you whited sepulcher. I was a Catholic long before you joined up, so you should have a little respect for people who know the faith better than you do, people whose forefathers exercised their Catholic faith "in spite of dungeon, fire and sword". Or maybe you should just go back to being a Bible Bum. We Catholics don't need your hate-filled sort. Irish Catholicism survived Queen Elizabeth the first and Cromwell the Protestant mass murderers, we'll survive quite well without you.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 12, 2011, 04:10 PM EST

  eiriamach: So you're a witch now? I thought you were a Bible Bum. You ain't no catholic, that's for sure. Why don't you stop obsessing about our church and go do your own thing in your own. I don't tell the witches how to do their spells. Leave us alone, you bigoted creep.

• snakehips | Dec 12, 2011, 04:05 PM EST

  The Roman Catholic Church and their dysfunctional hierarchy just don't get it! Most businesses or any organization for that matter would try to figure out why their "customer base" was unhappy or disastisfied with their product. This is not to say that the product is all bad as respects spirituality, but what about all the temporal issues that have turned people away from the Church? The Church solutions to problems are always to reinforce her dysfunctions and make their "Christian Community" to feel awful and punished and as marked "outsiders". And Archbishop... Remember, as I'm sure you do, your business does not prosper from your turning away folks, as I'm sure you still pass around collection baskets every week. But who am I to take the "fun' out of dysfunction?

• eiriamach | Dec 12, 2011, 03:05 PM EST

  'Looks like they didn't check out the title of the documentary before they made it. "Would You Believe" is already the title of an interesting Irish Wicca video on YouTube. Any of us not able to view the Archbishop's documentary who might look for it on YouTube would learn something the Archbishop never intended: "there are 150 witches from the Alexandrian tradition in Ireland with another 2,000 pagans, druids and shamen"!

• eiriamach | Dec 12, 2011, 02:49 PM EST

  "Archbishop Diarmuid Martin is urging non-believers to have the maturity to walk away." Believers ought to urge the Abp himself to walk away. If he would leave and take the Bishops of the Curia Cover-up with him, Catholics could begin to repair the discord, destruction of faith, and loss of unity. norainalundy has it right. Christ's last prayer on earth was for the unity of his followers-- all Christians-- not for driving out those who have been shaken by faithless Pharisaical priests. Why is the Archbishop trying to silence dissenters and reformers? Why do he and Fr. Drumm hint that non-participating Catholics should expect discrimination when they try to baptize their children or enroll them in school? I suspect they're worried about the prospects for success of the reform movement ('Assembly of the Irish Church'). Isn't that the real motive for telling absent-from-mass Catholics that they "really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when [they] don't really believe in it." "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the platter [following pious ceremonies & rules, "vestiges" of faith], but within you are full of extortion and unrighteousness" (Matt 25:35). Control mechanisms are not what 'church' is about. Abp Martin knows this. As more and more people also realize it, they are wise to leave mean-spirited, 'holy remnant' church politics behind and look elsewhere for spiritual sustenance.

• quixotic | Dec 12, 2011, 02:16 PM EST

  I agree pretty much with CaptainCon: What has been abundantly clear that much of the Church is man-made, not god-made. There is a whirlwind of evolving thoughts, understandings, and convictions of the origin and purpose of man, the essential goodness (or evil) of man. etc. Attending Sunday mass and listenting to priets (although yesterday I realy liked and respected the priest) is a temporal, man-made expectation. I will pick and choose. The arrogance of the priests and bishops is a barrier to belief.

• CaptainCon | Dec 12, 2011, 11:39 AM EST

  Interessting post Gullytale and I can assure you I'd have no problem at all with those catholics who find catholicism answers to something in their lives. I just despise a priesthood and hierarchy which is no credit to catholicism as a belief system. Best of luck to you and thanks for your thoughtful post which is a reminder that not everyone who goes to mass supports the degeneracy of the hierarchy. In a sense catholicism is its believers and many have chosen to protest by voting with their feet- it doesn't mean that they have rejected their faith. I have no quibble with them as we must all go through life as best we can. They may be better off without the 'appointed interpreter' on an altar seeking to prolong the influence of a priesthood rather than a set of agreed moral principles.

• joanxis | Dec 12, 2011, 10:29 AM EST

  At the age of 53 I chose to become a Catholic. I am a cafeteria Catholic, because there are some tenets of the CC that I can't go along with. I respect priests but they are not why I go to church. I have a lot less respect for many of the bishops. I am not a Catholic because of the priests, bishops or the pope. I am a Catholic because I love the Mass. I became a Catholic just before the sexual abuse scandal became public and I was ashamed of the priests and bishops who allowed this perversion of religion to happen. They do not define me as a Catholic. Again I say that I am a Catholic because I love the Mass. I try to leave politics and other's failings out of my personal relationship with God. And Georgie Boy, I see you're still at it - ugly name calling to people who have their own opinion on subjects and that disagree with you. You must go to confession a lot because of your hateful name calling. You certainly aren't a very good example of a church going man, but then again I shouldn't judge you. You are who you are and it has nothing to do with me or my religion.

• proudirishlass | Dec 12, 2011, 10:26 AM EST

  GOD bless you Gullytale. Its wonderful that you have been able to forgive your abuser and move forward with your spirituality. I agree that most people do not understand the old testament or indeed the new and it is in my opinion that the church likes it that way. I remember as a child being told in school the story of doubting Thomas. It was made very clear to us that if we questioned or doubted any of the teachings we would go to hell. It took me a long time to overcome that fear. That was a great control tool used by the church and thank GOD i overcame it. The church up until now has had a free reign over its flock but now its over. Its wonderful to find forgiveness but that does not excuse the perpetrator of the crime. The church has been forced to take responsibility by the courageous victims of such crimes. If the hierarchy truly believed in the commandments and had a fear of GOD these crimes would have been nipped in the bud and the perpetrators punished. Instead they victimized the victims denied them justice and shuffled the perpetrators to other unsuspecting parishes where they had the freedom to continue their wicked ways. Surely you can understand the terror inflicted on many innocent victims because of the neglect of the hierarchy. Thank GOD the flock has broken loose and are demanding accountability from the leaders of the church.

• johnymac60 | Dec 12, 2011, 09:32 AM EST

  You have go to be kidding, right? "..the church will expect a far fuller commitment.."?? Who gives a toss what these guys say the Church expects? Ecclesiastical abuse of power (in the name of "The Church" not in the name of Christ) resulted in violent and sexual abuse of half of the population of Ireland! This is EXACTLY the attitude that caused much of that horror. The Church uber alles! This is a cheap grab for authority as in days of old. Well it's gone. You people have used up all the moral authority you had and it'll be a long time coming back. The average Catholic - cafeteria or not - is as capable as you of determining right from wrong. AND that average person is much less likely to abuse others. Take your self-righteous posturing and shove it, lads. Have a blessed day.

• Gullytale | Dec 12, 2011, 09:28 AM EST

  He didn't suggest that at all. I watched it this morning. I am a survivor of clerical abuse and had every reason to leave. I'd not hesitate to pull him on this if that is what he were really saying. One brilliant suggestion he made. Catholics familiarising themselves with the Scriptures. Yes I know the bible is covered throughout the year at Mass. But any honest Catholic knows most of it is double dutch to the people in the pews. Especially the OT. I was introduced to the Scriptures in a real and meaningful way by non Catholics - and will be forever grateful. Was the very thing that helped me most in reconciling with the Faith I was born into - and getting to a place I could forgive a 'church/hierarchy' that really did try to tell me to get out. I nearly died because of it - and because of another who did die I fought back and promised they'd never do that to me or my family. RIP We are the Church. Grow up people. None of you are saints - and get over referring to anyone as 'a la carte'. Take the tree out of your own eye. I know atheists more Christian in heart than a lot of the professing 'christians/catholics' on some of these internet boards. You are the very ones who truly give 'faith life' a 'bad name'. Shame. Now say sixteen trillion aves and a pater n' learn some humility. :-) God bless

• proudirishlass | Dec 12, 2011, 09:23 AM EST

  In my opinion it would benefit the church to focus on the ten commandments and strictly adhere to them. The church hierarchy is in shock that its flock would dare question or DOUBT any of their teachings. They feel their grip loosening on the masses.They are loosing control of their kingdom. Panic is setting in . It is healthy to question and attempt to Analise all information given to us. This is what makes us functioning HUMANS and not ZOMBIES. After all we are as individuals, responsible for our own salvation. We have to repent for our sins directly to GOD our creator. Our relationship with HIM should not require MIDDLEMEN. The church needs to go back to basics and establish a new foundation from the ten commandments. As it stands now the church has strayed far and wide from those basic rules.

• albizzi | Dec 12, 2011, 07:45 AM EST

  Not only these cafeteria catholics do they attend only a few (if not none) ceremonies and masses during their life but on the contrary they are monopolizing the media's attention about how in their opinion the Church must be and how they would behave if they were priests, bishops or even the Pope himselfand and are voting unceasingly in the many anticatholic polls . Anyways the Vatican hierarchy looks to consider them as true catholics while in my opinion they really don't care about the Church.

• IrelandNorth | Dec 12, 2011, 07:44 AM EST

  Sounds similar to equally exclusive noises made by Benny shortly after his elevation, to the extent that the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church might go for downsizing to excluse ambivalent non-conservatives. But then, with diminishing attendance levels, they're hardly in a position to dictate terms.

• CaptainCon | Dec 12, 2011, 07:31 AM EST

  I assume Martin is in favour of re-opening the method of leaving the catholic church then that the Vatican closed off last year? They had to close that loophole discovered under the Count Me Out declaration because they realised they still needed to fake the statistics about how many 'catholics' there were in the state. The truth is that only somewhere between 3% and 7% at most of the Irish state's adults are observant catholics.

• roryobrien | Dec 12, 2011, 06:23 AM EST

  @Horsesinmidstream Like most Catholics your casuistics defend an impossible position. Given that any half decent non-fee paying school in Ireland ( north and south ) is RC, parents ( and teachers I imagine ) have no option but to play out the farce of being churchgoers. I had to once, just to get a job - in a state supported Catholic school in London!!

• corkcat | Dec 12, 2011, 05:01 AM EST

  It would be nice if the person who wrote the article had actually watched the programme. Archbishop Martin never said people should leave the church. Getting facts right doesn`t seem to be a priority in Irish Central.

• SeamusMartin | Dec 12, 2011, 12:19 AM EST

  Most modern Catholic seem to pick and choose what church rules they like. If one priest says something they don't like they talk to another priest. Most think celebacy is idiotic, that nuns and priest should be able to marry, that anyone who believes in Christ should be able to take communion at Mass. The RCC has cut off its nose to spite its face. You want a Catholic revival or renewal then the hierarchy all the way to POPE should humble themselves before God and Man and move forward!!!!!

• joan1954 | Dec 12, 2011, 12:00 AM EST

  This has been extremely interesting. Some perhaps ex Irish Catholics daming the church. Hum? maybe they need to realize and think about that not every priest is bad. Or is it they can't see that? I thoroughly believe that there weren't strong psychological evaluations that picked up these problems. Name calling isn't fair on people who disagree with each other as someone said "let ye without sin cast the first stone." We mere mortals are not equal to God we break the commandments at various times. Think about it. AB Martin has his hand full, don't blame him for the actions of others. If I understand correctly he has felt ostercized from his brother bishops because of his stance.

• CitizenWhy | Dec 11, 2011, 11:11 PM EST

  "Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings -- that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide." -- Buddha [Gautama Siddharta] (563 - 483 BC)

• helmet365 | Dec 11, 2011, 10:36 PM EST

  The archbishop thinks because we have lost interest in them we don't believe in God. Catholics church attendance is at all time record low because we are no longer prepared to accept everything on faith as before,as well as sit through more boring blood sacrifice ceremonies. The God we believe in is not chauvanistic, homophobic or after creating us threaten judgement and hell in another life. The church must change or die,it is well on the way.

• Ratslayer | Dec 11, 2011, 10:09 PM EST

  STFU, Father Bugger. U and yer creepy buddy Ratzinger are the problem.

• mfinucane | Dec 11, 2011, 09:21 PM EST

  he's lucky people attend for weddings & the other celebrations. i have walked away from the church.i have no need for crooks & pedophiles in my life.

• 1IrishMedic | Dec 11, 2011, 09:02 PM EST

  Archbishop Martin, should clean up his diocese as well as the rest of the Roman Catholic Church around the world by getting rid of the pedophiles. With the likes of certain American politicians who have "converted" , really do you believe being a hypocrite catholic will get some votes. The Pope should shake up the church or someone who has the gonads to do so should change the horrific interpretations that have come down through the centuries. Jesus Christ preached love, but remember he was Jewish not a Christian. Only those who thought religion should follow his teachings of love and respect should represent the Church today, not the greedy hypocrites who have the gold and the power. It only tells you the real "Golden Rule" is " those that have the gold make the rules.

• HorsesInMdstrm | Dec 11, 2011, 08:54 PM EST

  I agree completely with ArchBishop Martin. If he doesn't want you because you don't believe everything the catholic church requires you to believe, you are not a catholic. So I was taught in one of my college theology classes in a catholic college. So step away, and realize that you haven't lost anything. If you want to believe you can still believe, or not believe. We are supposed to have free will, I've heard and some even think there is a god who gave us this gift.

• maryosullivan | Dec 11, 2011, 08:52 PM EST

  Archbishop, why do think Newt Gingrich joined the Catholic Church ? Gives a la carte Catholics a new meaning , doesn't it. The greater question is why did the Church accept him.

• BishopSean | Dec 11, 2011, 07:44 PM EST

  Continued: I mentioned below Bonhoeffer, because his Christian leadership involved opposing “cultural Christianity” at a time when his Lutheran Church was called (politically correctly) the “Third Reich’s Church.” Bonhoeffer returned from safe New York to Germany to found the “Confessing Church” of young pastors opposed to Nazism. In this, they were prophetically walking in obedience to God: “I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent.” (Apocalypse 3:1-3). AB Martin knew he would receive brickbats more than kudos for his statements, some of which might even come from the Vatican. In my view, AB Martin is a true man of God. He is brave but not foolhardy. He is a “man for this season in Ireland.” Blessings!

• BishopSean | Dec 11, 2011, 07:44 PM EST

  Dear IC Friends, I’d like to ask you: are many people so angry with AB Martin because he is wrong…or perhaps because he is giving us all some “truth therapy?” Years ago a friend, a Russian Ambassador, told me he was an atheist, but “..an Orthodox atheist.” AB Martin reminds me of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, about whom I wrote a thesis. This great theologian and German returned to Germany from safe New York, because he felt “if he were not in Germany and opposing Nazism during the war, he would have no right to be involved in the reconstruction after.” He started with brilliant but abstract theology in ACT AND BEING but, as Hitler rose to power, Bonhoeffer got more incisive. He wrote several more books but, as events continued, he wrote THE COST OF DISCIPLESHIP and his final book, a collection of his writings, is appropriately titled LETTERS AND PAPERS FROM PRISON. Earlier the day the allies liberated his section of Germany, the Gestapo hanged him.

• Collette2 | Dec 11, 2011, 07:33 PM EST

  What a confounded cheek, the heirachy are the ones not coming up to scratch. Let them have the courage and maturity to walk out without he trappings, taking their fornicatng clergy with them, using erotic vagancy as an excuse for "being human" as commented by someone elswhere.

• redhand32 | Dec 11, 2011, 06:53 PM EST

  I guess I'm one of those cafeteria Catholics. Call me myopic. But, it seems that the hierarchy from the man himself, Church CEO Herr Ratzinger aka Pope Benedict, thru his corporate management, the bishops have effectively discredited the institutional Roman Catholic Church as a de facto crime syndicate with the pedo-priests shuffled like a deck of cards, to be distributed to parishioner/players. Therefore, it seems mighty presumptuous for the Right Reverend to be issuing black and white/good vs evil people ultimatums of this kind. But, hey that's me. Opinions are like AHs; everybody has one !

• norinalundy | Dec 11, 2011, 06:33 PM EST

  Have these priests never read the parable of the prodigal son? NEVER turn any one away. My parents left the church many years ago, and I won't tell you why. I am returning now. God knows I don't know what I am doing, and no one is helping me to understand it, but I am trying, but if anyone is trying to "kick" me out because I haven't attended in 30 years, it would certainly give me the fodder necessary to understand why my parents left in the first place. Why does the church make it so difficult for people to remain or to come back? Why is it so foreboding for people like me to enter a church because we simply don't know where to begin? Well, I am not going to give up just because some priest said to leave. I believe that my God and Christ want me there, and pardon the expression, come hell or high water, I am going to come back, receive the rest of my sacraments, and thumb my nose at those priests who claim to be men of the cloth. Give people a chance to believe again, give them a reason to believe in the church, make it a place where they can feel welcomed, not a place where rules and regulations take hold, but that understanding, and love reign supreme.

• kilgara | Dec 11, 2011, 06:22 PM EST

  As usual , anything that can possibly be used by Irish Central to cast our beloved church in a negative light , even in this joyous season , will be headlined. Very predictable and oh so tiresome. Why not search out another whipping boy , if for no other reason , to break up this boring monotony?

• Tooreenagrena | Dec 11, 2011, 05:05 PM EST

  He may have been undiplomatic but he has a point.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 04:35 PM EST

  MotherIrish: Any church that Ian Paisley is a leader of is not one I'd be interested in joining. And didn't you ever hear of his "silent collections"? No coins, only bills. You're wasting your time trying to recruit me. Try Momma Ginnty, she doesn't know her head from her butt.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 04:35 PM EST

  MotherIrish: Any church that Ian Paisley is a leader of is not one I'd be interessted in joining. And didn't you ever hear of his "silent collections"? No coins, only nills. You're wasting your time trying to recruit me. Try Momma Ginnty, she doesn't know her head from her butt.

• Delta56 | Dec 11, 2011, 04:22 PM EST

  The sexual abuse scandal being used to justify to vilify the bishop is wrong. First of all, it wasn't "little boys" the homosexual predator priests were preying on, (yes, I said it, "homosexual" priest, not pedophiles!),secondly, all baptized Catholics are called to evangelize. It seems by some of the posts I am reading that one can build their own kingdom without the sacraments, a potentially deadly mistake. We have to ask ourselves, "Is my kingdom decreasing, Is Jesus' Kingdom increasing?" The notion that "little boys" (it was mostly post-pubescent teens the H-priests were preying on)are only safe outside of church negates the fact that more sexual exploitation is done outside the church than in. Check the facts. Public school teachers both , male & female protestant churches,& most recently college, e.g Penn State & Syracuse Universities in the USA, all of them running amok infected with the dark spirit of lust . At least some of our good priests & bishops are proclaiming the good news as it should be proclaimed, fearlessly! Most of the Saints were martyred when they dared speak the truth. We are doing the same as the ear;y pagans, feeding them to the character assassination lions in the media coliseum arena."Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". If you think you have no sin, that is the first sin needing to be confessed.

• mamaginnty | Dec 11, 2011, 04:02 PM EST

  Readabook thank you for that but do not waste time on this nutcase GeorgefrigginDillon otherwise know as Goergieboy otherwise known as...well majority of posters know what they call him. I just happened to hit a sore point about what he comes to Ireland for, then has to confess to it if he is such a good catholic.

• bootsjoyce4 | Dec 11, 2011, 03:51 PM EST

  Angry Irish Clergy caused enough defection already by their own acts. Just like in the US, no trust anymore

• readabook | Dec 11, 2011, 03:48 PM EST

  George Dillon Says "mamaginnty: I long ago established that you're a fool" "Portia777 --You're crazy, aren't you?" Georgie,I've been following Irish Central dor the last couple of months and YOU early on established that YOU are a fool.I agree with Mamaginnty how you likely attend Mass at 10 and revert to a lout by 11. You'll likely spend the rest of your life chasing after your last confession on a daily basis. That sound you hear on each of your posts is the sound of another lapsed Catholic.

• maryanna | Dec 11, 2011, 03:30 PM EST

  Lock up your children from politicians bishops -church is not the place too be - have faith in yourself -the kingdom of god is within -not outside - be aware of the holy joes.Believe in yourself life is sacred. Wonder what god would say about the church corruption today? Get over yourself and stop blacking people! Godd bye you are the weakest link!

• Genesius | Dec 11, 2011, 03:25 PM EST

  I think the good ArchBishop needs to worry about the little boys under his care. Although they might be a lot safer outside the church. Once upon a time in Boston, Fr Feeney preached there was no salvation outside of Rome. In light of the sins of the Irish church that may be the only safe place for young boys. I get so tired of these sainted men in pointy hats deciding that the church is theirs only and the rest of us have no say. The pointy heads chased away one of Ireland's great holy men Pelagius as Rome wiped out Celtic Christianity. Jesus not only wept in the garden, he is also weeping over the damage to the Christian Church caused by those in collars.

• Ernesider | Dec 11, 2011, 03:24 PM EST

  ...I have great difficulties understanding MotherIrish's invitation to join the presbyterian church. However, it's good to have a little diversity here. I believe most of us born and raised in the catholic faith are as TIMFITZ says and also as one of my former bosses a jewish lady explained to me years ago that her cultural experiences far outweighed her synagogue attendance record in allowing her to adhere to her religion. I often pray more on the top of a mountain than when in a building. The church is reforming and the people will lead it and us to a better place.

• greensod | Dec 11, 2011, 02:58 PM EST

  Politicts and religion,How sweet it is,go ahead and tear each other apart.

• MotherIrish | Dec 11, 2011, 02:28 PM EST

  Welcome good people to the Presbyterian Church. We take sinners and saints alike, weekly worshippers and CEO's. Jesus used the sinners in so many of His parable. He did not say, are you a believer first! Leave the Roman Catholic church and join us Presbyterians - we'll love you no matter what! (besides we are not nearly as rich as the R.C. church and we don't charge for baptisms.)

• rugbyplayer | Dec 11, 2011, 02:08 PM EST

  Well now, with the likes of the RC Archbishop of Dublin who just mirrors the lackeys appointed as bishops by the Vatican, ALL Catholics should leave. Somehow the Vatican believes that the church belongs to it alone and to its appointed satraps. Wrong! It belongs to the people who have been neglected, abused and lorded over by a not so celibate throng of sanctimonious clerics for centuries. No wonder anti-clericalism is on the rise.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 02:07 PM EST

  Irish people and people of Irish heritage would do well to remember the atrocites and mass murder committed by Bible Bums in Ireland. These people murdered countless Irish people in the 16th and 17th century. They subsequently parasitically lived off the Irish Catholic poor for hundreds of years. OK, it's a long time ago, but I have yet to hear their lousy descendents ask for forgiveness. For a person of the Catholic tradition to associate with these people is like a Jew joining the Nazi Party or a Black person enlisting in the KKK.

• jimmybb | Dec 11, 2011, 02:06 PM EST

  a well respected arch bishop as aopposed to some of his peers n cohorts but he needs to define lapsed catholics as i would be an irish born lapsed catholic who moved to usa who has an american catholic church that am pretty happy with so the problem arch bishop is the irish catholic church not the people an they wonder why people dont show up 4 mass on sunday there isa massive dissconect with the hierachy and the regular people who go to mass or dont go cos of the bullshit they have created

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 02:02 PM EST

  Portia777 --You're crazy, aren't you? I hope you can get help. Religious insanity is one of the most difficult to treat.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 02:00 PM EST

  mamaginnty: I long ago established that you're a fool, I have no intention of debating with a clown. And kindly stop your ignorant use of the term "Georgieboy". You're an illiterate fool and an utter nobody, how dare you address me like that. Go jump in a lake, you idiot.

• vicar1985 | Dec 11, 2011, 01:58 PM EST

  Arch Bishop Martin makes a bold statement, and marginal Catholics along with non Catholics go ape shart. Martin just issued you guys a challenge, "Be what you claim to be, or claim what you actually are." The Catholic Church is either your Mother Church or it isn't. If it is, what right do you have to pick and choose what you will observe? If it isn't what qualifies you to rightly judge the Bride of Christ? The Church in Ireland has suffered much and will continue to suffer. However, she will continue and "...the gates of hell shall not prevail."

• tocon1941 | Dec 11, 2011, 01:55 PM EST

  You are the reason we left you stupid git.

• mamaginnty | Dec 11, 2011, 01:51 PM EST

  GoergefrigginDillon With a name Like that I expected a more intelligent post, Creepin Jasus you remind me of the people who went to mass every morn and thinking themselves saints, but once outside would rip people apart with forked tongues. I might not go inside a building called a church but that does not mean I do not believe in God, How dare B.Martin actually say that to the people, The pope and the clergy are supposed to be the servants of God, not Gods themselves. They are the ones that people do not want to have anything to do with, men who change the law of God whenever they feel like it, and make up their own laws to suit themselves, Goergieboy I remember being told that if I went to the wedding of a protestant friend of mine that I was committing a sin, such dribble, but THEY changed that law, because they were invited to maybe a wealthy mans wedding be they protestant, Jewish etc. As for demanding the child get first communion/baptism, the pope/clergy were the ones who did the demanding, putting the fear of God into us that the child would not get into school or heaven unless. I fear them no more, when THEY move out then I will move back in. You are such a two face git GoergeD, trying to act like a good catholic, you are inclined to forget you open your big mouth then put your foot in it at times, You come over to Ireland not to go to church but to meet up with a certain type of woman who gives you the (itch) Do you actually go to confession, then think " ah I'm forgiven so I can go do it again " B.Martin was cute enough not to mention WHY the people have stopped going into the buildings, where a pope can say he has forgiven the children who enticed the clergy to commit sin, that is a sick statement to make about those children who were abuse, beaten and raped...lest we forget..

• Gearoid4 | Dec 11, 2011, 01:37 PM EST

  Jesus came primarily to bring back the lost sheep of His day into the sheepfold. He has been doing this since through the missionary spread of the Good News of the Gospels via the Catholic Church that He founded. Archbishop Martin while realistically recognizing the increasing numbers of uncommitted or tepid Catholics who only fleetingly avail of the services of the Church, wants those who are faithful adherents to stand up and be counted. There is no compulsion involved in this appeal but rather an encouragement for those who participate in the life of the Church to do so out of a heartfelt need and not for "social" reasons. The Church has no bar on anyone entering or leaving the sheepfold but rather remains open 24/7 to those pursuing a closer encounter with Jesus Christ. Those who advocate setting up a separate Irish "Church" are chasing after a will-o-the-wisp, so-called perfect alternative that would in reality be subject to their own personal tastes and like many protestant groups who followed similar rules and "doctrines" more than likely would end up dividing into schismatic sects.

• TIMFITZ | Dec 11, 2011, 01:30 PM EST

  The term "Irish Catholic" is an ethnic identity. You earn it by birthright not by attending a Church. This is a title that Martin cannot take away from anyone. Anyway the dispute within the church has nothing to do with the number of times one listens to errant priests. The problem is alienation from Church leadership, and it is Martin and people like him who should leave the Church.

• Brolaur | Dec 11, 2011, 01:26 PM EST

  It's my conscience, Arch Bishop, not yours! Would Jesus be an ARCh Bishop, Bishop, Cardinal, Pope if he were to come back tomorrow? Maybe HE would just walk on bye. Did John The Baptist charge for Baptism? Did Jesus charge for Anointings?

• dermotfastnet | Dec 11, 2011, 12:50 PM EST

  I simply can't believe it another misguided poor soul of the cloth, perhaps he should review his position within the church

• CitizenWhy | Dec 11, 2011, 12:43 PM EST

  For this to happen effectively most schools will have to be taken out of the hands of the Catholic Church. I like this idea, it will certainly diminish the dysfunctional political role of the Catholic Church in Ireland and isolate the catholic zealots who tell everyone what they should think and do. This might be the time for the formation of a Reformed Irish Catholic Church, using married priests and women priests and not expecting to house themselves in grand buildings or make impositions on the conscience, just offer the sacraments and thoughtful reflections on the Gospels, asking people to contemplate and discuss what those Gospels mean.

• cantwaittogo | Dec 11, 2011, 12:35 PM EST

  I hope the last Catholic to leave the church turns the lights out.... Here in the USA, 80% of women of childbearing who identify themselves as Catholics also use birth contol. They refuse to abide by all the rules of the Vatican, and refuse to subject the children they do have to an "Angela's Ashes" existence- when it comes to their children,they know better than the Pope in the golden Roman castle. Everybody loves a celebration, i.e a wedding or baptism, but the truth is, the majority of Catholics in Ireland and the USA do not believe in the major tenets of Catholicism, and will not pay for settlement of sex abuse committed by priests in a corrupt, feudal institution. So- everybody out-find a hall for your celebrations and let the Catholic hierarchy stew in their own juices- that's what Jesus would do!!!

• irishmary24 | Dec 11, 2011, 12:25 PM EST

  Who died and made him eligible? Oh, yes, the same One who died for me! The archbishop and dare I say, the Pope, should revisit the Bible!. John3:16 "For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotton Son, that WHOSOEVER believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." There is no stipulation added to that whosoever! It doesn't say, except archbishops, people that look and believe as I do, everyone except people that have not adhered to our rigid judgements. It means all, including a self-righteous archbishop, that has no compassion for his congregation. Life may have handed them some difficult circumstances, that may include an onslaught of corrupt priests and archbishops, that have landed severe blows to their faith in God and the simple truth in the verse quoted above. The truth remains, no matter if someone in the church is trying to stomp on the disenfranchised while they are down! We are still the family of God, and should be lifting up one another, and accepting each other, rather than accusing, and establishing more rigidity to keep people away from the church.

• Portia777 | Dec 11, 2011, 12:10 PM EST

  What kind of reverse psychology is the AB playing at. Since July 2011, one is not allowed to leave the Roman Catholic church. Also, because the Roman church owns and controls most of the Irish schools, parents have no choice but to baptise their children to get them into school. Why would a parent baptise their child and in so doing hand over the soul of the child to the Vatican. Most people have no idea what these ceremonies really mean. In marriage you end up with 3 people involved and if you wish to divorce, you have to ask permission from a man in a dress and another dressed in curls in a court. Not much sign of freedom there, is there?

• charlie50 | Dec 11, 2011, 12:05 PM EST

  The vitriol in some of these postings reveals the fire of hatred in some hearts. I think that you must be exactly those people to whom the bishop is directing his advice. There is always the choice of purging the hatred and going to confession and returning to the love of Christ and being obedient to Christ's gospel.

• MotherIrish | Dec 11, 2011, 12:04 PM EST

  Ahh all you lapsed Roman Catholics, come to the Presbyterian Church. We will welcome you with open arms and if you choose to be a CEO (Christmas, Easter only) that is ok too. At least you come on those days, because it may lead you to come on a more regular basis. Jesus used a lot of 'lapsed' people in his parables.

• froggyalley | Dec 11, 2011, 12:02 PM EST

  Holding Jesus hostage again, are we?

• EamonnDublin | Dec 11, 2011, 12:00 PM EST

  I seriously consider that the Catholic church is being over-pilloried by a media and the media's more zombie type followers who are delighted that they can "legitimately" chastise the church for its failings in the child abuse scandals. Having said that, I hope the Archbishop has been taken out of context, or completely misquoted, when he is quoted as saying "Those who say I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging onto the vestiges of faith when I really don't believe in it" should leave the Catholic church. Since when was it a tenet of Catholic faith that to disagree with the doings (or misdoings) of some people within the Catholic church meant that one did not believe in God? I should have considered that, if anything, the opposite is true!.

• charlie50 | Dec 11, 2011, 11:57 AM EST

  Finally a bishop who has the courage to tell it like it is. Those who wear the cloak of Catholicism and behave like pagans do great harm to the faith, especially to the faith of the youth. The bishop is giving a warning to those who hypocritically profess to be Catholic. Jesus gave the same warning...Read Luke 13: 22-27... "Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, 'Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?' He said to them, 'Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’"

• bunkerisland | Dec 11, 2011, 11:56 AM EST

  Harsh criticisms of those who probably experienced similar behavior from nuns in black & white during grade school will not really help the church in addressing its diminishing population. Many church leaders have never been able to have an adult dialogue with those sitting in the pews, consequently we walk away from arrogance standing on high in a pulpit.

• lokionline | Dec 11, 2011, 11:52 AM EST

  The catholic church is doing a good enough job of self-destruction from the inside out. It hardly requires much in the way of "atheists and Bible Bums" to make this process any more efficient.

• AltRockAddict | Dec 11, 2011, 11:52 AM EST

  @Springfield9: So well said! Some people are just too prideful to go searching for Him when they have all this "beautiful tradition" to worship. @GeorgeDillon: Bible Bums? At least we can understand our services and everyone is invited, any time. No club membership required.

• ballyhip | Dec 11, 2011, 11:46 AM EST

  Watched Of Gods and Men on DVD last night. I suggest that the AB do the same and maybe he will rediscover his humanity which came before any institution in our evolutionary process. Had trouble with the One True Apostolic Church as a 12 yr and it hasn't gotten any better 58 yrs later. I have Church of Ireland cousins on my mother's side in Louisburg so "walking away" isn't a problem...it's part of me. I suggest that the AB should do a walk about w/o the trappings of his office. He would find out that a counter-counter Reformation is taking place. He either joins in or finds the door.

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 11:41 AM EST

  A strange alliance of atheists and Bible Bums attacking the Catholic Church here!

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 11:39 AM EST

  DaveDILLON--With a name like that I would expect a more intelligent post from you. What's this nonsense about "closing the church door"? The other dope pilib said something similar--"Enough of this talk about who should be allowed in the Church and who shouldn't." I've seen a lot of stupid discussions on this site, but this is about the dumbest ever. Will you dopes get it into your head that anyone is free to enter a Catholic Church? The door is closed to no one. And anyone is free NOT to enter a Catholic Church. Get a life, you stupid bigots. Go obsess about something else.

• claughlinn | Dec 11, 2011, 11:38 AM EST

  Why would you want to have your child baptized or receive communion or be married in a Church you really don't believe in? Accusations are easily made in something you really do not believe in. You accuse the Church of not being truthful - how truthful are you if you participate in ceremonies you really don't believe in? Why would you want to - using the Church for your convience then critcizing seems hugely hypocritical to me

• Oisin.C.K | Dec 11, 2011, 11:32 AM EST

  What a hypocrite. I'd be happ to leave this rotten church but they don't let you take your name of their list of a billion Catholics. So they are basically saying don't pack up our churches and keep your name on our list. The idiocy of Catholicism never ceases to amaze me.

• puulgerard | Dec 11, 2011, 11:28 AM EST

  the catholic church is evil and corroupt , i thought that there services were free ,,ex ,weddings , christenings , funerals etc, they recieve a collection and private donations also , and there is also an element of snobberie in the catholic church..in my eyes , they do not practice the word of god ..

• PhlutiePhan | Dec 11, 2011, 11:14 AM EST

  Here in the US of A, Raymond Burke of St. Louis tried this and was run off to the Vatican for his efforts. Doctrine is just not as important as "money". Meanwhile, the socialist-communist has gained a foothold according to Malachi Martin.

• lokionline | Dec 11, 2011, 11:03 AM EST

  I would be only too happy to leave Diarmuid Martin's church. I am sure that a significant chunk of often mentioned billion or so 'Catholics' the church claims to speak for would welcome a chance to deny the myth that the Catholic church speaks for them. Give me a mechanism for doing so and I will happily comply. The only method that was available for having your name struck from the batismal record was discontinued as far as am aware, sometime in 2010, due to the numbers requesting the service. I know a lot of folks think Martin is the only bishop to have any cred left in Ireland. But I have had personal contact with Diarmuid regarding abuse suffered by my brother and myself at Marian College in Dublin in the 60s. This was the same school that he attended just a few years before. Let me tell you the experience of communicating with him about this was not a stellar experience.

• Murph46 | Dec 11, 2011, 10:46 AM EST

  I'll leave the Church when this twit can assure me that all pedophiles have left!

• joycean | Dec 11, 2011, 10:23 AM EST

  It has been church policy to try to avoid officiating at weddings and Baptisms of lapsed Catholics for many years. I would think that if the Church would like to add to its shrinking rolls, it should try to engage people who do appear occasionally.

• Messiah | Dec 11, 2011, 10:19 AM EST

  One way to Increase Following Loss.

• RockNReel | Dec 11, 2011, 10:14 AM EST

  Diarmuid Martin may want to remember that there may be a very valid reason why Irish catholics made a decision not to attend his church. Perhaps he has a very short memory? Most of those who have lapsed have taken a stand against the Hypocritical stance his church was taking regarding the sexual abuse by Irish priests of innocent children and it was until himself and other bishops were forced by people power and public opinion that the church and Rome finally gave in and admitted that they tried to cover it all up.

• kamituar2 | Dec 11, 2011, 10:03 AM EST

  I remember some forty years ago when th AB and his buddies who run the church rally took a foot hold and started changing our church. They took away our beautiful Latin mass and hid the host on a side altar.Then the nuns shunned their habits and they lost control over the priests . Now we are all to blame for their failures.So sad.

• Searlit | Dec 11, 2011, 10:01 AM EST

  Faith in God isn't a Catholic invention.

• milesbeacom | Dec 11, 2011, 09:52 AM EST

  That is so much better than, "Let's kill all the heretics". It also makes sense to be careful that all the children belong to loyal members of the church who are less likely to complain about the pedophiles.

• milesbeacom | Dec 11, 2011, 09:52 AM EST

  That is so much better than, "Let's kill all the heretics". It also makes sense to be careful that all the children belong to loyal members of the church who are less likely to complain about the pedophiles.

• DaveDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 09:52 AM EST

  The Prodigal Son comes to mind. Surely it makes no sense to close the church door. Is it wise to close an avenue for the lapsed to return to the faith? That does not mean a non practicing Catholic should demand or expect for their children automatic enrolment in the school of their choice because they were baptised in the faith. Life and faith is not a black and white decision and may be a lifelong struggle, this does not seem a very Christian attitude.

• pilib04 | Dec 11, 2011, 09:44 AM EST

  Attacking Catholics who worship in the Catholic church is not the way to be the Shepherd. These bishops, especially Irish Bishops seem to have a hard time in bringing themselves up to the level of working people. They simply can't understand the concept of working for their survival! Everything is given to Bishops and many priests! Bishops should have to work a full time laborer job in order to support themselves. Enough of this talk about who should be allowed in the Church and who shouldn't. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone!!!

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 09:44 AM EST

  "So people who go to their parent's funeral, their sister's wedding should stay out of his church?" Joycean, you're either really dumb or else you are deliberately twisting what the Archbishop said. I can't believe you're so dumb as to think that non-catholics are asked to "stay out" of Catholic ceremonies. So Protestants, Jews, Muslims, atheists are kept out of Catholic weddings? If you believe that you're more stupid even than the poster sirpeter.

• NYCsheridan | Dec 11, 2011, 09:42 AM EST

  GeorgeDillon, please read jamesjlavelle's post...right above yours. Thanks, pal.

• eiregirl | Dec 11, 2011, 09:41 AM EST

  Make a stand...either you're in or you're out. It's very comforting when you do.

• NYCsheridan | Dec 11, 2011, 09:41 AM EST

  Probably a good idea. That way my kids will be kept away from the Archbishop and his pedophile colleagues.

• AnnTherese | Dec 11, 2011, 09:27 AM EST

  Roman Catholic hierarchy often confuse Faith in God with Faith in the Catholic Church. They are clearly, and more clearly all the time, not at all the same thing. Many very faithful and good Catholic believers find themselves unable to believe in the instistutional church which many times fails, not only the moral and ethical mandates of Jesus, but fails the rest of us as well. Do what Jesus would do, Popes and Bishops! Shift to real Gospel values, not demeaning (See women and gays, self-serving hierarchical values to keep the old "Boy's Club" structures in play. Meanwhile, back in the real world, we Believers look for genuine leadership into the future and mourn the loss of so much that made the church "Catholic."

• Springfield9 | Dec 11, 2011, 09:23 AM EST

  The AB is right. Ever since Christ left, there's not much point in just sitting there.

• joycean | Dec 11, 2011, 08:46 AM EST

  So people who go to their parent's funeral, their sister's wedding should stay out of his church? What a vicious attitude. This man also told Boston Catholics that it "could be dangerous" for Botonians to feel close to Ireland.No wonder the Catholic Church is losing members.

• jamesjlavelle | Dec 11, 2011, 08:32 AM EST

  What happens to helping people wherever they are on their faith journey? "Judge not, lest you be judged."

• GeorgeDillon | Dec 11, 2011, 07:49 AM EST

  I totally support this. There is nothing as offensive to loyal Catholics as to see how the pseudo-Catholics demand that their children (who've never been inside a church) be accepted for Holy Communion. These Irish are typically spineless, otherwise why do they want a Catholic funeral for people who are not Catholics? Are the Irish Bishops finally developing some backbone? As I see on my visits to Ireland, there are still lots of genuine Catholics in the country, they're the ones who count.