Clerical sex abuse victims slam Vatican’s response to Cloyne Report

2BorNot2B a Roman Catholic . . indeed that is the burning question?I would strongly urge you to reflect upon the thoughts of Thomas Doyle, RC priest & Clergy Abuse Advocate**continued**If all of these things were true!The problem is that there is no authentic historical evidence that any of it is true. The various titles, roles and offices attributed to popes, bishops and priests are not products of divine revelation but of human invention, often as a response and reaction to serious external threats to the power and wealth of the clerical aristocracy. For example, and it’s a good example, Papal Infallibility was literally invented by Pope Pius IX and forced through the First Vatican Council...for political reasons. The pope’s kingdom, the Papal States, was threatened with dissolution by the Italian social upheaval at the time. Likewise the title “Vicar of Christ” was part of a conscious program of a medieval pope to fortify papal power. This title has had a long and complex and by no means consistent history. It was not applied to the Papacy until the 13th century when Pope Innocent III took it to enhance his overall program of actively concentrating just about all power in the Church in the papacy.

2BorNot2B a Roman Catholic . . indeed that is the burning question?I would strongly urge you to reflect upon the thoughts of Thomas Doyle, RC priest & Clergy Abuse Advocate**continued**This teaching is the foundation for the clerical culture that runs the Church. Clericalism is the belief that clerics (deacons, priests and bishops) are superior to lay persons and are rightfully entitled to deference, unquestioned respect and exemption from many of the obligations born by most lay people. This clerical world is the home of the men who make up the Church power structure. The Church teaches that this structure is the church. To be a Catholic, one must believe totally in the teachings about the nature of the church strictures and the sacredness of the Church’s clerical ministers.If all of these teachings were true, would there be a need for all of the secrecy? If these teachings were true, especially about the “Christ-like” nature of priests and bishops, would there be such widespread corruption, dishonesty and abuse found among clerics at every level?

2BorNot2B a Roman Catholic . . indeed that is the burning question?***I would strongly urge you to reflect upon the thoughts of Thomas Doyle, RC priest & Clergy Abuse Advocate. . cont.***Source: The secret secret of the Vatican / Tom Doyle – My Comments on Andrew Brown’s Blog /July 23, 2010 / Link: http://www.richardsipe.com/Doyle/2010/2010-07-25.htm***This teaching is the foundation for the clerical culture that runs the Church. Clericalism is the belief that clerics (deacons, priests and bishops) are superior to lay persons and are rightfully entitled to deference, unquestioned respect and exemption from many of the obligations born by most lay people. This clerical world is the home of the men who make up the Church power structure. The Church teaches that this structure is the church. To be a Catholic, one must believe totally in the teachings about the nature of the church strictures and the sacredness of the Church’s clerical ministers.If all of these teachings were true, would there be a need for all of the secrecy? If these teachings were true, especially about the “Christ-like” nature of priests and bishops, would there be such widespread corruption, dishonesty and abuse found among clerics at every level?

2BorNot2B a Roman Catholic . . indeed that is the burning question?I would strongly urge you to reflect upon the thought of Thomas Doyle, RC priest & Clergy Abuse Advocate***Source: The secret secret of the Vatican / Tom Doyle – My Comments on Andrew Brown’s Blog /July 23, 2010 / Link: http://www.richardsipe.com/Doyle/2010/2010-07-25.htm***"The Church is a visible institution. The Church teaches as official dogma that the Church as we know it, that is, a hierarchical structure that is totally run by celibate male clerics (mostly bishops), was instituted by Jesus Himself. The Church teaches that the pope is the representative (Vicar) of Christ on earth. It teaches that Christ founded His church and left it in the control of the twelve apostles and explicitly willed that these apostles pass this power down to their successors. Consequently the official teaching is that the visible church is run by men who have been explicitly chosen by the Supreme Being. Furthermore the Church teaches that priests are fundamentally different than other humans. They are, in the words of John Paul II, uniquely configured to Christ. Catholics are taught to believe that priests are special. They represent Jesus Christ. They have very special spiritual powers. Their intercession is essential for anyone who wishes to make it to heaven in the next life.

What would Jesus say or DO ? I'm positive he would not be very happy how his church has turned out i bet he would flog the guilty Priests like he did on the temple yard 2000 yrs ago. he would drive the sinners from the house of God just as he did the Money Changers the Vatican is not a house of God , its a House of Evil & Sin. it covers up the Guilty Priests .its only a front it serves its own self interest of Power and Money then the good of its Flock.

@2BorNot2B - I am thankful for your comments. One thing that strikes me is your certainty that it is Satan which is at work here. For myself, I am less certain, especially when I reflect on the words of Saint Pio; those quoted here are taken from a letter written by Pio to Friar Agustine, his Spiritual advisor. This after all is a beatified saint of our church who sought to make us aware that God was greatly displeased at the behaviour of certain ministers within his church. "How many times my wrath was to strike them like lightning, but I was stopped by the angels and the souls who love me....." strong words, but they seem to me to have been something of portent of what has come to pass. I agree absolutely with you about the presence of Satan, however I now feel that presence within the Church itself. And that should not be surprising when you consider that WE all ARE the church whether as laity or clergy. We all are born of the human state and condition and by definition we are all imperfect, though we be Pontiff, priest, parent or postman. Satan can work through that humanity, that weakness. It would seem that the Catholic Church, my Church and yours has for too long sought to deny that this was indeed the case, and is now "hoisted on its own petard" for doing so. Satan at work? most certainly. However, regrettably the fertile ground within the Church, as with the rest of this world was already prepared for the "fury" of which you so earnestly speak!! For myself, and for recognising that, I am already happily vindicated.

barneyjo, you are wrong. I in fact do TRULY UNDERSTAND because I know people quite close to me who have 'walked that calvary.' However, they believe in 'redemptive suffering' and are not part of shrill, get even at any cost, make as much noise as you can, bring down the whole edifice' and, as one poster on these blogs once expressed it: "I want to get my full pound of flesh from those bastards!" - I in fact know many more people, than the CC is charged with, who have been victimized by their own relatives, friends and 'helpers' (all you have to do is open the pages of one of those check-out-counter journals to see that 90% of H'wood women have a tale to tell in that regard), yet no one hears about their cases. So don't talk to me as though I'm some sort of Pollyanna. This entire world is rotten; but what most enervates me is the fact that ONLY the faults of the CC are put in high relief! This is neither accidental nor unintended. It is deliberate, concerted and criminal; the product of vitriolic satanic hatred for Christ Himself. -- In view of the few cases in the CC that have actually gone to trial and conviction -as opposed to the zillions that are hushed and overlooked perpetrated in the bosom of so many other organizations... isn't it obvious that the fury of Satan is unleashed and that he is at work here? Weren't we warned that would happen? -- But you sir, seemed to have kept the faith despite the disinformation that saturates the MSM. Guard it carefully, and don't waver. Inform yourself away from the emotionalism and spin the enemies of the Church so effectively employ to pare any remnants of the 'moral authority' the Church has always enjoyed. I assure you, you will in the end be happily vindicated.

So Junebug -- Unlike you, I actually believe the words of the bible, and the fact that in His infinite wisdom God presents us with challenges that sorely test us. Yet we choose to endure and work from within His Church, because, unfortunately for you, ONLY HIS CHURCH has the means of salvation in the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist; don’t you remember, 'He who does not eat my body and drink my blood has no life in him..'? It so happens that only those consecrated to the priesthood can confect it - or, do you think you, or those you now follow can do so as well? I'd like to see chapter and verse proof of that one.. unless to you Jesus was ONLY KIDDING and, as they say in your neighborhood: it's 'only a symbol.' - The bible tells me also that 'only those who endure to the end will be saved,' so I, and millions like me persevere, pray for a cleansing, act to instruct ourselves try to counter the exacerbated hatred and lies, and wait for the truth to prevail. The Lord knows what He is doing, and in His own good time the dust will settle and the Church will continue as it has for 2000 years, until He chooses to come back and ‘make all things new.’ The diff between us is that we wait and listen, like the virgins with the well stocked lamps, you… you think you know better!

JuneAGnewt-- My, but you suffer from a case of terminal conceit! Unlike NY, the city so nice it had to be named twice, your posts have definite limited appeal, so you don't need to repeat them. -- You're like the smarmy old aunt, always accusing, always in a froth, always annoying.. so much so, it makes one pray for the day when a fulminating coronary renders her immobilized and speechless. - For you, however, that would be a blessing; assuming some 6 years on hospice hell, you'll have plenty of time to recollect, repent and reprise the faith you left and now spit upon every chance you get. If I were you, I'd work double hard on your judgmentalism, on your blanket condemnation of an entire Church; on people you don't even know, yet accept as an article of faith -because some ex-priest whi is your new-found prophet and pope/guide tells you so- that the WHOLE of the house Christ founded is rotten and irredeemable.- Right there honey, I'd be mighty careful with the words He left, found on the book you now worship: 'Lo, I will be with you until the end of days.. and 'The gates of hell shall not prevail against her..' But for the moment, that's not you, you obviously enjoy your personification of a reverse latter day Torquemada. Based on the incessant blathering put forth on your posts, you arrogate to yourself a 'higher knowledge' than that of Christ Himself. That alone should turn off anyone attempting to get through the first two lines of your hateful, ’look, I’m holier than thou’ diatribes. Cont…

@2BorNot2B - "My soul goes looking for some drop of human pity, but they leave me alone under the weight of their indifference. The ingratitude and the sleep of my ministers increase the agony for me. They badly respond to my love! The greater torment for me is that these people add their contempt to their indifference and disbelief. How many times my wrath was to strike them like lightning, but I was stopped by the angels and the souls who love me....." (Padre Pio - Apparitions). Broken bodies, broken spirits, broken minds, broken faith on a global scale. NOT ONCE have I ever seen you attempt reconcile this terrible truth with your particular view of the church's position. I am obliged to conclude that neither you yourself, or anyone close to you have ever been a victim of abuse and its horrific aftermath, and in that you are most fortunate. Unless you, or anyone else for that matter, has walked the Calvary of abuse, what do you truly know, or understand???

@2BorNot2B - broken bodies, broken spirits, broken minds, broken faith on a global scale. NOT ONCE have I ever seen you attempt reconcile this terrible truth with your particular view of the church's position. I am obliged to conclude that neither you yourself, or anyone close to you have ever been a victim of abuse and its horrific aftermath, and in that you are most fortunate. Unless you, or anyone else for that matter, has walked the Calvary of abuse, what do you truly know, or understand???

Richard Sipe's credentials . . continued: He spent 18 years serving the Church as a Benedictine monk and Catholic priest. In those capacities he was trained to deal with the mental health problems of priests. He and Marianne have been married since 1970 and have one son. Both as a priest and married man he has practiced psychotherapy, taught on the faculties of Major Catholic Seminaries and colleges, lectured in medical schools, and served as a consultant and expert witness in both civil and criminal cases involving the sexual abuse of minors by Catholic priests. Sipe has no professional sympathy for the cardinals and bishops and other ranking church officials who cover up their crimes. "Some of them are so terrible," Sipe says. "I mean the plain lying that I've seen, bishop after bishop saying, 'No, this was never true. I don't know anything. I can't remember anything.' And sometimes the bishop just smiles. One bishop said, 'I only lie when I have to.'"

Richard Sipe's credentials: A.W. RICHARD SIPE is a Certified Clinical Mental Health Counselor who earlier spent 18 years as a Benedictine monk and priest. He was trained specifically to deal with the mental health problems of Roman Catholic Priests. In the process of training and therapy, he conducted a 25-year ethnographic study of the celibate/sexual behavior of that population. His study, published in 1990, is now considered a classic. Sipe is known internationally and has participated in 12 documentaries on celibacy and priest sexual abuse aired by HBO, BBC, and other networks in the United States, United Kingdom, and France. He has been widely interviewed by media including CNN, ABC, NBC, CNBC, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, People magazine, Newsweek and USA Today.

2BorNot2B a Roman Catholic . . indeed that is the burning question?***Those who unquestionably place their trust in a man are deemed followers of a cult. The pope is the leader of the largest cult, namely Roman Catholicism, which boasts a billion followers. Christ rebuked the religious leaders of his day, the Scribes . . the Pharisees on several occasions for their preference of TRADITION over the SCRIPTURES. ( Matt. 15:3,6; Mark 7:8,9; 13) No more is this in view than in the cult of Roman Catholicism. Christ also rebuked them for their ignorance of the SCRIPTURES. (Matt. 22:29 It is a common snare among men to elevate a man to a position of prominence, but for Christians, Christ alone is to have the pre-eminence. (Col. 1:18) Christ has warned us that many false prophets would arise. (Mark 13:22) Christ said HIS sheep hear HIS voice and follow him. (John 10:27-28) He went on to say, those who keep HIS Word and obey HIS commandments are in truth HIS disciples. (John 8:31; John 14:15; John 15:10) In his earthly ministry, Christ often read and quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures. The Apostle Paul in the book of Acts commends the Jews in Berea for searching the Scriptures and not taking Paul at his word (Acts 17:11), and in Paul's 2nd letter to Timothy, we read: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (II Tim. 3:16-17) I would commend to all Roman Catholics God's Word . . the Bible . . the GOOD BOOK! I would also direct you to the ministry of Richard Bennett, Biblical Apologist & former R.C. Priest. Mr. Bennett has authored many articles in which he carefully examines R.C. Doctrine / teachings / in the light of Scripture. One of particular note is 'The perilous fondness of the Papacy' / Source: BereanBeacon.org

2BorNot2B a Roman Catholic . . indeed that is the burning question? HorsesinMdstrm, perhaps this poor misguided fellow (2BorNot2B) will listen to the wise counsel of one of his own.***Source: Irish Central / Article: Memo to Irish Catholic Church: Your services are no longer needed /Posted by FatherTim at 7/4/2009/ EXCERPT continued: “My friends, For the Catholic Church In Ireland, the game is over.The Irish people, and I am convinced it is the majority, no longer wish to have the Catholic Church in their country, or in their lives, and possibly not in their faith. I cannot blame them. The Church is solely to blame for this, from front to back, start to finish. It is reaping what it sowed. Although running away from a fire rather than toward it is not the example many of us in the Church believe should be our service to God and His Children, it may be best for all that we settle up our debts, hand over our criminals, and catch the next plane out of Dublin. I am sure that, after a transition period, many of the services the Church provides in Ireland can be contracted to others, and I would hope whatever damage settlements we must and should pay will smoothe that changeover. There is simply no way that an institution so horriby tainted and so utterly mistrusted can or should speak in the name of Jesus Christ in Ireland, nor attempt to project spiritual and moral leadership.”***Since writing his scathing condemnation of the Roman Catholic “church “Fr. Tim”, a Jesuit priest, seems to be “missing in action”, and no longer appears on the roster of blogs at Irish Central! No one seems to know the whereabouts of “Fr. Tim” but in all likelihood, he has been spirited off to some remote monastery consigned to a life of penance and silence for the unforgiveable crime of telling the TRUTH!