75 Comments

• Intercessor | May 06, 2012, 10:58 PM EDT

  My sincere prayer is that there will be a Second Reformation that will shake the Vatican to its core, and this time it will start in Ireland and then catch fire in the United States. 500 years ago, Martin Luther started the First Reformation in Germany, because of the abuses in the Papacy of "Selling indulgences," which today, most would find laughable. The Vatican's internationally orchestrated coverups of the criminal activities of Pedophile Priests should be enough to start a 2nd Reformation, just out of common sense, if nothing else. The Vatican has never solved the problem of Priest Pedophilia, it has only covered up for it, promised to change, and then turned around and allowed it to continue! Isn't it time for lame "promises" by Cardinal Brady and the Vatican to be considered ineffective and unattainable? To Gaelphoncan: I have a bag of mismatched socks that I'll send you, as I'm sure they came to me thru some supernatural, parallel reality! Maybe they are yours!

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 06, 2012, 05:12 AM EST

  IrelandNorth, I sent the following response (below) to you yesterday but it seems to have disappeared into a black hole within Irish Central (probably the same place where missing socks go): IrelandNorth, you're a man after me own heart. It's because of people like you that I've stayed in Ireland as long as I have. Even having just a few good IBAB friends who think like you (people who can see the bigger picture) has made it easier for me to put up with the condescension and arrogantly patronising attitudes I've encountered from 'Little Free Staters' in Inis Ealga over the years. I liked your comment about the 'mild colonial boys'. Nár lagaí Dia go deo thú, a chomrádaí.

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 06, 2012, 05:05 AM EST

  CaliforniaShamrock: Aye, I read the article, mucker, and I commented on it (which you'd you'd see if you read more of the comments). There are 2 or 3 other threads covering the same subject - what harm if this one descends into chaos? I happen to know a thing or two about the Church in Ireland, in both the 26 Counties and the 6 Counties, the Church in the USA, the Church in Germany, and the Church in Spain, because I've lived for extended periods in all these countries. I also know what it's like to be at the receiving end of anti-Catholic sectarianism and bigotry. Aye, IBAB = Irish born and bred. Got it in one, Ciara - fair play. I can also say this, Ciara: I've been involved in ecumenical activities on both sides of the border in Ireland and Protestantism is far from being monolithic. The divide between evangelicals and pentacostals in Ireland (especially in the North) can be as wide as the divide between Catholicism and Protestantism at times. However, that said, the genuine believers from all the Christian traditions in Ireland have much more in common with each other than they have with unbelievers (and this is becoming more obvious each year).

• ciaradexy | Mar 05, 2012, 02:52 PM EST

  California, it always descends into chaos!!!! I think the comments below stemmed from Americans commenting on this article which is about the Church in Ireland and assumed they know anything about it.

• CaliforniaShamrock | Mar 05, 2012, 02:36 PM EST

  Did any of the people below even read the article?

• ciaradexy | Mar 05, 2012, 01:45 PM EST

  IBAB-Irish born & bred ( I think/assume!)

• Curitiba | Mar 05, 2012, 01:33 PM EST

  Oh, what does the acronym IBAB stand for?

• Curitiba | Mar 05, 2012, 01:31 PM EST

  Gaelphoncán: Thanks for your appreciation of my posts. I have read yours and I am glad that we think along the same lines, you have made a very good analysis of the situation. However, I do think the problem with this identity issue is that when talking to an Irish person born in Ireland about this, reason goes out the window and it becomes a case of who can shout the loudest is right. But that's all I will say on the matter until an article related to this matter comes up.

• ciaradexy | Mar 05, 2012, 12:54 PM EST

  Gael, if YOU feel you assimilated into Irish society then yeah, d consider you one of us however someone who has only ever holidayed here a few times is not one of us, hense this exlusivity you think Im exuding here. IrelandNorth, it must be a generational thing so if you feel yanks and the average irish person have anything in common other than their relatives lived here years ago cos I can assure you anyone I know doesnt feel the same as you. Im certainly not illiterate in my own language. As I have said before I attend CNG events and volunteer at Seachtain Na Gaeilge events. I have also been helping out with An G team and Bernard Dunnes -'An Bród club' a good friend of mine is teaching him Irish so dont make any assumptions about the language! I have pride in the country I am from rather than a preoccupation with the country my distant relatives were from like most on this site.

• IrelandNorth | Mar 05, 2012, 07:57 AM EST

  ciaradexy! If you insist on speaking for other Irish people like myself, I suggest you run for politics. You are not authorised to speak for me, and I'm a Leinster-Irishman from Sth. Dublin in my mid-50's. Even the Queen of England uses the plural objective "one" instead of 'we'. You obviously speak for a generation of Irish citizens who think they are so cool and so progressive, when in fact they are thouroughly colonised by fashion and trends from elsewhere. Personally, as a 50something Irishman, I identify more with Irish-Americans on this website than with younger, radically individualistic, self-preoccupied, historically revised generations like yours. You consider yourself Irish and you're illiterate in your own language.

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 11:06 PM EST

  Where you and I differ, Ciara, is that I tend towards being INCLUSIONIST - migrants born and bred in Ireland, Ulster Scots unionists in the North, the children of the Irish diaspora in North America, Britain, and the Antipodes (and other places) - they all represent types of Irishness to varying degrees to me; all have a claim to Irishness. You seem to want to be EXCLUSIONIST, telling people that they've no right to an Irish identity because they don't fit your narrow geographical definition of Irishness (and no, not all IBABs think like you though I do admit that far too many do). I'm interested in what you consider “Irish qualities and idiosyncracies” Your Swedish mates have lived in Ireland and they're totally assimilated (yes, but are they Irish??)? I've lived in Ireland for 17 almost 18 years – who knows, you might even consider ME assimilated! I've worked, paid taxes, signed on (briefly) on both sides of the border, and graduated with a BA and a PhD from an Irish university. I've got a PRSI number (or whatever they're calling it these days – PPS?), I've voted in several elections (on both sides of the border) and referenda since 1991 and I speak Irish at home with my wife (and her family). Do you think I could part of the fabric of YOUR society (so it's YOUR society now, is it?). At the moment I'm working abroad (not in Europe or North America) but I'll be going home to Ireland in the summer. I'm not optimistic that I'll be able to stay long, however, but I am open to the possibility of miracles.

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 11:02 PM EST

  "We ALL originated in Africa anyway!" Yeah, and North America, Britain and Ireland were all part of one land mass so why can't we all just call ourselves Irish?

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 10:58 PM EST

  Yeah, I know, this thread is supposed to be about the Church specifically, but flip it, I'm enjoying the identity debate. First of all, I agree with you completely, Curitiba. There is no such thing as ethnic Irish, Ciara? You may as well say that the word 'ethnic' is totally meaningless. What I mean by ethnic Irish is someone whose ancestors on both sides had names that (originally) started with O'/Ó or Mac. Yes, I know that there is mix of Norman and Viking (actually the Normans are also the descendants of Vikings that settled in France and then went on to Britain) Welsh and Anglo-Saxon, but the predominant ethnic strain in Ireland is Gaelic. When I say I'm ethnically Irish what I mean is that I'm a Gael (I assume Curitiba means more or less the same). I know many, many IBABs in Ireland who know what I mean and associate being ethnic Irish with being of Gaelic origin. Many IBABs in Ireland recognise that there is such a thing as being ethnic Irish, regardless of whether you do, Ciara.

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 10:50 PM EST

  Fair play to you, Curitiba, you've exposed the contradictions in the reasoning of the 'Irish-by-geography-alone' brigade (they're Polish, but no, they're Irish). I heard an IBAB in Ireland (who also (supposedly) views Irish identity in the parochial, black-and-white geographical terms in which Ciara does) refer to someone as 'that Chinese fella' to which I objected 'But he was born and brought up in Ireland, why do you call him 'Chinese'? The pathetic reply I got was 'You're not Irish, you wouldn't understand". “If you werent born or raised in China, then youre pretty much not chinese” This is utter nonsense, Ciara. There are significant populations of ethnic Chinese in Singapore (actually, they're in the majority in Singapore), Malaysia, and Vietnam, and they see themselves as Chinese, their non-Chinese neighbours see them as Chinese, and not only that, the people of mainland China also regard them as Chinese (I know this for a fact). I know of a blond-haired woman (daughter of American missionaries) who was born and brought up in China. All of the Chinese I've asked say she speaks Chinese (Cantonese) like a Chinese-born ethnic Chinese person but not one of them considers her to be Chinese – she's still a 'foreigner'.

• ciaradexy | Mar 04, 2012, 04:00 PM EST

  But grand, Im with you on that.

• ciaradexy | Mar 04, 2012, 04:00 PM EST

  The prevalence of cystic fibrosis and haemachromatosis in Ireland would suggest otherwise.

• Curitiba | Mar 04, 2012, 03:48 PM EST

  I wouldn't call a gene pool of 4 million or so people inbreeding. Anywaaaay, Ciara let's call a truce for now and I promise to debate with you about something completely different on another article before we take up this subject afresh on a more relevant article.

• ciaradexy | Mar 04, 2012, 03:39 PM EST

  Hows about we stop people breeding with people from other 'ethnicities'? Should we insist they have DNA testing done to ensure they are breeding with the same as themselves? Theres nothing like a bit of inbreeding to propagate healthy babies.

• ciaradexy | Mar 04, 2012, 03:30 PM EST

  We ALL originated in Africa anyway! If you werent born or raised in China, then youre pretty much not chinese. You can go on and on about this all you want but youre British! Thats how Irish people see you! If I can a kid in Australia, then that kid is Australian with an Irish mam! Ive yet to hear an Australian say they are irish, its a very American thing and now Im experiencing it with you. Sport is sport. People follow where they are from, whatever team they have a link with or whoever they are indoctrinated to follow kinda like religion. Im from Ireland, born and raised yet my Swedish mate would have more Irish qualities than my American cousins because they are part of the fabric of my society. You may have Irish parents but that doesnt make you a Paddy much the same as my dad being from Monaghan doesnt make me from there.

• Curitiba | Mar 04, 2012, 02:03 PM EST

  Indeed, I could claim to Chinese in that case, seeing as Chinese people don't really exist either, because according to you they must be a mix of different people as well. Nations are little more in that case than local councils collecting tax and maintaining the infrastructure. Patriotism takes on about as much meaning as supporting a football team. People get very tribal and patriotic about that.Of course you can live anywhere and support any football team, you don't even have to live in the same country. So, if being Irish is an artificial concept and I can just buy into it because I support it, then I must be Irish on that basis,and you must be Irish on that basis too the same as I might be a Man U or Arsenal FC man through and through, but I don't have to live in Highbury or Manchester to support them. So the wheel turns full circle and so you and I and the Ulster Protestants and the Papua New Guineans must all be the same people. We are indistinct from each other, but we support different artificial cultures, as there are no real cultures, because all people are a indistinct, randomised mix, as it were and it is on that basis we claim our meaningless "national identity"

• Curitiba | Mar 04, 2012, 02:02 PM EST

  All caucasoid people have the potential to produce offspring with a variety of hair colour. The propensity to produce descendents with varied hair colour is suppressed in other peoples. As I've said before, there was some tinkering around the edges of the main body of the British and Irish people by invaders, but there's no evidence that they overwhelmed the natives with massive numbers. Just the occasional raiding party.But supposing I'm wrong and you're right and there was all this mixing going on. What of the invaders themselves? Surely they must also have been a mix of people who invaded them? And the people who made them up, well they must have been a mix of invaders and conquerers as well.And so on into antiquity. Were there any homogeneous tribes at the root of it all? Let's say not. Therefore everybody is a randomized mix of people, hence are no such people as the Irish any more than there no such people as the English or indeed Polish.

• ciaradexy | Mar 04, 2012, 12:30 PM EST

  Curitiba, show me the evidence that Irish people are some pure bred ethnic race different from all other races. So the Spanish Armada landed in Cork, theres no chance they intermarried with the Irish locals? The Vikings arrived into Dublin, no chance that they intermarried with the locals? The Normans invaded in 1169, none of them intermarried either? Seriously? Its understood that black haired sallow skinned Irish people have some spanish link or that red hair is viking and blond hair is celtic so why on earth would you think that YOU are somehow some part of a 'pure' race?? Irish people can have blonde, brown, red or black hair. We can have brown, blue, green or grey eyes which immediately indicates a blend.

• Curitiba | Mar 04, 2012, 11:25 AM EST

  "Also, Curitiba, 'ethnic' irish. There is no such thing as ethnic Irish! We are a mix of celts, normans, vikings even Basque! Stop with this etnicity thing for the love of god!" Well Ciara, you might be a mix of all these people, but beyond the pale, I can assure you, we are not. If you want to go on believing all of this idealogical claptrap, please, go ahead. I have tried to educate you, but I have failed. You just won't admit you are wrong. Fair enough. But I am right and I know a lot of people agree with me. I base my arguments on hard science and data, not fairytales.

• ciaradexy | Mar 04, 2012, 07:05 AM EST

  There are so many Americans on this website who seem to be very like how Id imagine the Irish were 200 years ago with the pro-catholic, anti-gay, anti-migrant into Ireland stance. I cannot understand for the life of me why so many of you feel that you have the right to slate and insult Ireland and whats going on here now. Its 2012, we are part of a globalised society which was started by the US in the first place and yet so many seem to be pissed off that we are not a theme park for American tourists. Whats this all about? My American cousins seem to be the complete opposite of this and luckily enough so are my American friends but it seems to be the case on this site. Can someone explain this? By the way, I am LOVING the proper debate and conversation on here finally. Usually its just people who think they know Ireland and the irish and who just spout anti-irish rants. Nice one!

• ciaradexy | Mar 04, 2012, 07:04 AM EST

  Tempra-''Most of us do not have a clue about the Irish political system; have not lived under it; have not played Irish sports; lived in a country where Roman Catholicism had an overwhelming influence on social mores and so on. Most probably think Seamus Heaney is the barkeep at Paddy’s Real Irish Pub and Michael Higgins was a character in My Fair Lady. Enda Kenny---well, Johnny Cash once did a song about a boy named Sue.'' Exactly! There are many migrants who moved to Ireland who DO live under the Irish political system, who work here, live here, integrate with the Irish, play GAA and are part of contemporary Ireland! Just because you may have an Irish granny doesnt make you more 'entitled' to make any claims to Ireland. I have Swedish mates who are here 5 years. Theyre completely assimilated into irish life at this stage. Thats makes them part of the fabric of my society. Theyd have more Irish qualities and idiosyncrasies than any American with an Irish passport!

• ciaradexy | Mar 04, 2012, 07:04 AM EST

  You all make really good points and i understand them but as an IBAB, I can only tell you how you are viewed in Ireland. Irish people (the ones I have met and know) do not look at you as irish! I get your points, really i do and they are all well and good. Also, Curitiba, 'ethnic' irish. There is no such thing as ethnic Irish! We are a mix of celts, normans, vikings even Basque! Stop with this etnicity thing for the love of god! You might be considered irish in England but as youve said before you didnt fit in in Ireland. Gaelph-''When I lived in London I asked dozens of 'second-generation Irish' I met "How do you see yourself - are you English or Irish?" I would say about 85-90% said "Irish, definitely (of course)!", 10-15% said, more or less "I'm not sure what I am. I'm definitely NOT English but when I go back to visit family in Ireland I don't really feel Irish either (i.e. THEY don't see me as Irish). To be honest, I don't really feel that I'm either". This is exactly my point!

• Curitiba | Mar 04, 2012, 06:52 AM EST

  Where has my comment gone?

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 06:49 AM EST

  'Very bloodily Irish', ha-ha, maybe we're finding some common ground at last. Hey, I was just going with the flow, boss, and sometimes you have to take your opportunities when you get them, know what I mean like. Reverting back to the question of the Church, she's certainly down but she's not out, not yet anyway. Back in the days of the Penal Laws and even at the beginning of the 19th century, arguably you could have written off the Church as having no future in Ireland but she survived that and I think she will survive this crisis (but it certainly won't be easy). Paradoxically, the Church in Ireland is strongest (morally) when it's at its weakest (in terms of power). When the institution became a fat cat in Ireland, that's when the rot began to set in. Now she's in a position when she'll have to fight tooth-and-nail for her survival and that is (paradoxically again) a good place for her to be in. If the Church is going to survive there's going to have to be radical reform, much more transparency, and the laity are going to have to play a much stronger role. Remember that the Church is the people as much as it is the clergy. I know a lot of people in Ireland want to throw out the baby with the bathwater but I don't think (or at least I hope) their numbers won't reach a critical mass. There are hard times ahead for Ireland and I wonder where people will find the spiritual resources to cope. Our grandparents' generation had a strong faith generally and they certainly had the spiritual resources to cope with adversity but I'm not so sure about this younger generation. Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

• Ben_Dub_Na_Cork | Mar 04, 2012, 05:21 AM EST

  There is an artilce in the Irish Times about this website so I came to have a look. The comments boards are priceless, I had to comment on this one. The article is about child abuse and organisational cover up and people still revert back to "what is Irish" and "I'm Irish" and "the famine!". Well folks in someways that's very bloodily Irish. As for the church, well maybe the people will rebuild the church that is on fire. I think we should really test this theory and politely remove the organisation from the state and see who really wants them back. There is a shockenly Irish movement to somewhat forget or not pass on the history of the organisational rape of people's lives over the past 150 years. While the same organisation has spin doctors fighting a media battle for the generations to come, hopefully it doesn't blow over in 60 minutes. The church factory should reexamine itself and true spiritual men should revolt and find meaning and worth for their almighty.

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 02:58 AM EST

  Although they go to the same schools as ethnic Irish IBAB kids, the kids I know who were born to Nigerian parents in Ireland have a family culture which is very different to that of most of their neighbours and schoolmates. I don't know any ethnic Irish IBAB kids in Ireland who bow to all of their elders (including ethnic Irish people like myself and my wife) when they greet them and who refer to all of their parents' friends (including myself and my wife) as 'uncle' and 'auntie'. I don't know any ethnic Irish IBAB kids who do that! These kids of Nigerian parents are far more respectful and far more submissive to their parents than any ethnic Irish IBAB kids I know (and they eat African cuisine at home - some of it really spicy). To say that they're Irish, in exactly the same way as their ethnic Irish IBAB neighbours and classmates are, is ridiculous, Ciara, and you know it. One more thing, they may learn about the Great Famine, 1798, the Penal Laws, and the Battle of Kinsale, etc., but these events mean nothing to them; it's not THEIR history, and though I was born outside Ireland, I see the aforementioned events as being part of my family's history and part of MY own history.

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 02:43 AM EST

  I'm not anti-immigrant or 'New-Irish'. I've got dear friends from Nigeria and Ghana and I'd be very sad if they left Ireland and went back to Africa. If their children, who have grown up in Ireland, want to embrace an Irish identity, I've no problem with that at all but the reality is that if you ask those children (born and bred in Ireland and speaking with Irish accents) "What are you - do you see yourself as Irish?" the answer you'll get (in my experience) will be "No, I'm Nigerian" (or "Ghanaian", or sometimes, "African"). When I lived in Germany, I asked the daughter of Ghanaian immigrants (who had been born in Germany and lived there all her life, and who, of course, spoke native-speaker German) "do you see yourself as German?" she looked at me as if I were totally daft and replied "How could I be German?? I'm black! Of course, I'm not German! (those were HER words, NOT mine). I then said "But you've lived your whole life (apart from one year spent on an extended vist to Ghana) in Germany! How DO you see yourself then?” "African, of course! Well, Ghanaian, to be more specific, but African first" was her answer.

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 02:23 AM EST

  In response to both Curitiba and Ciara's question, as someone who lived in England for a few years, I can tell ye that reference is made there to the 'first-generation Irish (in Britain)' (the ones who left Ireland) and the 'second-generation Irish (in Britain) (born in and bred in England but the children of 'first-generation Irish'). When I lived in London I asked dozens of 'second-generation Irish' I met "How do you see yourself - are you English or Irish?" I would say about 85-90% said "Irish, definitely (of course)!", 10-15% said, more or less "I'm not sure what I am. I'm definitely NOT English but when I go back to visit family in Ireland I don't really feel Irish either (i.e. THEY don't see me as Irish). To be honest, I don't really feel that I'm either". Of all of the dozens I put this question to, only ONE ever said to me "My parents are Irish but I'm English" (and ironically, he was actually born in Ireland).

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 02:21 AM EST

  Fair play to yourselves as well, oldboreen and merefalow.

• Gaelphoncán | Mar 04, 2012, 02:18 AM EST

  Fair play to you, Curitiba, you've exposed the contradictions in the reasoning of the 'Irish-by-geography-alone' brigade (they're Polish, but no, they're Irish). I heard an IBAB in Ireland (who also (supposedly) views Irish identity in the parochial, black-and-white geographical terms in which Ciara does) refer to someone as 'that Chinese fella' to which I objected 'But he was born and brought up in Ireland, why do you call him 'Chinese'? The pathetic reply I got was 'You're not Irish, you wouldn't understand'.

• merefalow | Mar 03, 2012, 07:51 PM EST

  if a donkey is born in a race horse stable he,s a donkey,being Irish is in your heart,if your parents are Irish and you are born in Hong Cong you are Irish,and we don't need telling what we are either,we know,and know where our hearts and loyalty lies wherever we were born,ITS A REAL INSULT to question peoples love and yearning for a country that they have been removed from through no fault of their own sometimes but still regard with a love and nostalgia as home.and that can last for generation,s,very often those people have a greater knowledge and understanding of Ireland,its history and culture,music ,etc that SOME of the people fortunate to have been born there..

• oldboreen | Mar 03, 2012, 07:30 PM EST

  And another point Ciaradexy-consider the Irish born children of immigrants to Ireland, and therefore Irish nationals by birth, the so called 'new Irish', are they ethnic Irish? Or will you dodge that one?

• oldboreen | Mar 03, 2012, 07:19 PM EST

  Ciaradexy, let me share this with you. I spend a lot of time in a part of Spain where several Irish families have settled. Their children are Spanish born, speaking not Irish, but Spanish at school. Are you seriously suggesting that these kids are therefore ethnic Spanish?

• tempranillo | Mar 03, 2012, 06:41 PM EST

  Ciara. Surely you know about differences between connotation and denotation; about declaratives and ironies, and so on. You are a master at using irony, sarcasm, allusion in your posts. Yet, when the topic comes around to use of the word ‘Irish,’ you demand that word be used in only the denotative sense. When people in the US use the term Irish to describe themselves, it is understood that we mean ‘Americans of Irish ancestry.’ We do not mean that we are Irish in any legal sense. We are citizens of the US, and to play on a phrase in the English-language version of the Irish National Anthem, we are not soldiers whose lives are pledged to Ireland. Most of us do not have a clue about the Irish political system; have not lived under it; have not played Irish sports; lived in a country where Roman Catholicism had an overwhelming influence on social mores and so on. Most probably think Seamus Heaney is the barkeep at Paddy’s Real Irish Pub and Michael Higgins was a character in My Fair Lady. Enda Kenny---well, Johnny Cash once did a song about a boy named Sue. And, let’s not get into our collective inability to speak Irish. Most of us would reply to ‘ Conas ata/ tu’ by saying, Estoy bien, gracias. Our life experiences have, for the most part, been American. Yet, there are 40 million of us, more or less, and we understand what we mean by Irish. My guess is this provocation will continue with the 40 million Irish continuing to irritate the ___% of the 4 million real Irish.

• Curitiba | Mar 03, 2012, 06:05 PM EST

  sorry that should be "if you can be born in Ireland and quite legitimately claim you are NOT Irish"

• Curitiba | Mar 03, 2012, 06:02 PM EST

  People of 100% Irish ancestry are Irish, wherever they are born. End of. If that was not true, the Irish passports would not be granted to the sons and daughters of Irish emigrants who are born abroad. I, and the millions of Irish who are born abroad don't need your permission to be Irish, we are and that's it. You have already admitted to me that just because you are born in Ireland, it doesn't mean you are Irish (NI Loyalists/Unionists). So come on Ciara, if you can be born in Ireland and quite legitimately claim you are Irish, on what basis do you claim to be Irish? or are you just going to ignore my difficult question and fire one back at me like you usually do?

• ciaradexy | Mar 03, 2012, 02:18 PM EST

  Curitiba, whatever you about it and however you feel about it, Irish people do not think of people born abroad who do not live here as irish and we do not think of someone as Irish just because of where their parents or grand parents are from. If you havent grown up with us or lived with us here then you are not one of us.

• ciaradexy | Mar 03, 2012, 02:11 PM EST

  So why arent people of Irish ancestry born in England called Irish English?

• Curitiba | Mar 03, 2012, 02:07 PM EST

  I've never heard of "Irish English" either. Maybe it's person who's got one English parent and one Irish one. Irish American, on the other hand, is a perfectly accurate and reasonable description for people of Irish ancestry who are born in America.

• ciaradexy | Mar 03, 2012, 10:53 AM EST

  I dont use the term 'New irish', its a ridiculous term, pretty much like 'Irish English' or 'Irish American'.

• Curitiba | Mar 03, 2012, 10:48 AM EST

  Polish, Ciara? I thought when foreign migrants come to live in Ireland they and their Irish born children are 100% Irish. Surely you should be saying "The catholic church will be relevant to a tiny minority in Ireland over the next few years and theyll be New Irish"?

• SingleDonald | Mar 03, 2012, 10:44 AM EST

  I will also repeat my belief that the ridiculous celibacy rule contributes to pedophilia. One theory of the cause of pedophilia is the stifling of one's sexuality, at an early age. Didn't the Church attempt to do this, as we all were growing up? Happily, the vast majority of us didn't become pedophiles, and even disregarded some of the Cuurch's dogmatic stances, on human sexuality. Those who were very religious, and sought to "tow the line" as to those rigid principles and enter the priesthood, couldn't supress their sexuality indefinitely. Therefore, as adult priests, they sought relief with those who represented their contemporaries, at the time their sexuality was repressed: young girls or boys. All 3 types of pedophiles previously mentioned are represented here. If the Church eliminated the celibacy rule, and permitted their priests to date & marry women, you would see a different type of man enter the seminary. He would be a man who wasn't saddled with guilt over sexuality, and didn't have to take a "vow" which nobody can really keep, be they straight or gay! Of course, I am not a psychologist, and present this only as a theory. Any comments as to the celibacy rule & pedophilia would be welcome.

• ciaradexy | Mar 03, 2012, 09:14 AM EST

  Eiriamach, one of the few voices of reason on this site! The catholic church will be relevant to a tiny minority in Ireland over the next few years and theyll be Polish. A Polish friend of mine said that he reckons Catholicism in Poland now is the same as it was in Ireland 50 years ago. People cant even be sterilised in Poland as its against the churches teachings. And 50 years ago in Ireland, children were being raped and women had their babies taken off them all thanks to the local priests! Bring on the future when church and state are completely separate!

• ciaradexy | Mar 03, 2012, 09:09 AM EST

  CelticQueen and Murph, if you read my post above the one where I mentioned gays and paedophiles you would see that I was being sarcastic!!!!!

• barneyjo | Mar 03, 2012, 08:03 AM EST

  @anyone - I started posting in forums such as this, out of anger and pure frustration. It has been both enlightening and heartening that to realise through this medium that my views and concerns are shared by so many and yet also rejected by many. And that means there is an opportunity to debate these issues that obviously matter so much to so many people. And that can only be a good thing. I still despair that in many respects the debate that needs to take place within the formal bounds of the church is still so superficial and muted in many respects. I can understand the wishes of those who would seek to draw a line under what has happened and move on from there. We will reach that point eventually, but we're not there yet. I remain of the firmest conviction that it is the God of us all that has laid bare the failings and flaws of part of his church on earth. And it is for a reason that this has happened. As to what that reason might be, I am not certain. Perhaps it is the clearest possible message that the church cannot continue as it has done previously and those who would ignore what Diarmuid Martin and others have to say, do so at their peril!!

• warlocks | Mar 03, 2012, 01:11 AM EST

  Maybe its not too late for the church . but its up to the People that must demand the Vatican enforce its prists to repent from this grave sins committed against children. the Pedophile priests must go!!! Kick the Rotten sinners out ! Be it Cardinals, Bishops or a parish priest. We can all start by giving Fair warning to the Vatican by Cutting off their Euro Dollars !!! That should make them take notice .

• tempranillo | Mar 02, 2012, 11:19 PM EST

  The Roman Catholic Church in Ireland was far more powerful than its American counterpart, and the pervasiveness of that power is something the average American catholic does not--perhaps cannot--understand. The abomination of child abuse is something we react to in a visceral manner. The cover-ups in the states are damaging, despicable and so on. But, in Ireland, revelation of the coverups are so much more damaging----the loss of trust in institutions has, from a historical perspective, been sudden and cuts across virtually all sectors of society. how much do you trust any institution: church; government; banksl EU. Americans, while unhappy with O'Bama; Bernanke; congress, banks and so on, have not experienced the moraconomic 180 that the Irish have. separately, i echo collette2's comment on barneyjo---very well written comment that should be read by all.

• Collette2 | Mar 02, 2012, 09:54 PM EST

  What do I think? Well said Barney!

• barneyjo | Mar 02, 2012, 09:39 PM EST

  This man is on the "front line" and not sitting far removed in Rome. He sees and feels the anger of a nation that once had the catholic faith at its centre, and which feels betrayed by what it once held up with Reverence. Thats not to say that there are still fragments and remenants of the faith in individual parishes across the country where priests are seeking and getting a new dispensation from their parishioners to continue in ministry, but the old relatioship based on power and deference is gone. Diarmuid Martin is absolutely right when he says that this is not over. The Faithful will neither forget or forgive what has been done to them easily. The percentages of Mass attendance in large swathes of the country, both urban and rural show that they have voted with their feet. While many may still attend mass, the do not do so out of fear or dread of the church, but rather because of their journey of faith which has changed radically, and will continue to do so. I dont know if I am typical or not, but I no longer place absolute surety on any messages or counsel coming from the hierarchy of my own church. In all things I apply a simple measure by asking "where is christ in this"? If I cannot find Christ then I reject out of hand, simple as that.

• eiriamach | Mar 02, 2012, 09:01 PM EST

  @ciaradexty, you guessed right when you wrote, "Im guessing no one on this site will understand my post as sarcasm doesnt travel to the US." CelticQueenUSA did not understand your satire/sarcasm. SingleDonald, another American, didn't understand it either but thinks he understands pedophilia. We've all read the same nauseating defenses of the indefensible, from people who try to blame the crimes of Catholic priests on the gays they think infiltrated their Church. StanJames obviously understands: "And lets not get the BS about it being gay priests." I'm sure they'd think I'm nuts if they read what I wrote on Cahir's blog about my chat with Niccolo Machiavelli! Subtlety is not just lost on some, but it's positively dangerous sometimes!

• SingleDonald | Mar 02, 2012, 07:26 PM EST

  CelticQueenUSA, I will attempt to enlighten ciaradexy. I have said this here before. Comcerning pedophiles, I see 3 basic types: 1) Straight men who go after pre teen girls; 2) Gay men who go after pre-teen boys, and 3) Men, who otherwise like women, who have a side perversion for pre teen boys. I was unaware of # 3, until the story of Steven Stayner came out. The pervert who kidnapped, and held him for 7 years, chose young boys over women, although he was otherwise heterosexual. The proof of this is that at the time Steven turned 14 (and was becoming a man) pervert Ken Parnell kidnapped another boy, age 6 or 7. Steven was reaching a point (manhood) that the pervert was losing interest in him. Now consider this. If I was a straight pedophile (God forbid!), and went after pre teen girls, my interest in them would wax, not wane, as they grew into womanhood. That pervert who kidnapped Jaycee Dugin, at age 11, continued to abuse her, as she grew into womanhood; he even fathered 2 daughters with her! I realize that the concept of a type 3 pedophile is difficult to grasp, but it does exist. I could even add a 4th type: bisexual pedophiles, who go after girls AND boys, but these are apparantly rare. ALL pedophiles, regardless of their orientation, should be severly condemned!

• CelticQueenUSA | Mar 02, 2012, 07:01 PM EST

  In my first post the spelling error should read "TWO DISTINCTLY", NOT THE SPELLING NOTED. Sorry, my anger at the stupidity of the remark made my fingers on the keys slower than my brain was thinking!

• CelticQueenUSA | Mar 02, 2012, 06:50 PM EST

  ciaradexy: You should educate yourself before speaking of gays and pedophiles in the same sentence!! They are two different types of people and you NEED TO BONE UP ON YOUR INFORMATION BEFORE YOU MOUTH OFF1! It is ignorance like this that causes hate and discrimination.

• CelticQueenUSA | Mar 02, 2012, 06:48 PM EST

  ciaradexy WAKE UP STUPID!!! Gays and pedophiles do not even belong in the SAME SENTENCE. THEY ARE TWISTINCTLY different items and are NOT INTERCHANGEABLE!!

• CelticQueenUSA | Mar 02, 2012, 06:41 PM EST

  Bishop Martin is courageous in his stance. God bless him. When the Catholic Church lets its members have a democratic say in what policies prevail, then and only then will this matter be helped. Laws and votes are what will save the children from criminal behavior against them.

• Collette2 | Mar 02, 2012, 06:15 PM EST

  They maybe at breaking point but not short on their pomposity still, worldwide. Propaganda has been a successful vehicle of the faith since Pope Gregory XV. Hitler used it against the Jews.

• stanJames | Mar 02, 2012, 04:02 PM EST

  So the question is - how do we do the same in America. the latest horror is that about 8000 kids were abused in the diocese of Milwaukee. "Cardinal" Dolans former home base 02-09................At a million $$$ a head as compensation for the victims, we can soon be rid of the church of the endless hidden molestation of children.............................................................And lets not get the BS about it being gay priests. The gay priests had their sex with each other. the str8 priests had no other outlet, and used their power over children in a way similar to what happens in prison. Estabilishing the "power" structure.............My thanks to IC for exposing the latest vile crime of the church. Which btw in the past included the hatred of Jews, which paved the way for the holocaust and WWII and 55 million murders

• Murph46 | Mar 02, 2012, 03:48 PM EST

  ciaradexy there is a distinct difference between gays and pedophiles!

• rainbowbrew | Mar 02, 2012, 03:27 PM EST

  it is like the Muslums with their own god. Seems the catholics have their own version of christ and god. Christ would not do whatthe catholic leadership is doing. In fact this experience proves they have no more a link to christ and god than anyother person. Their religion is like anyother religion a translation of what they think Christ wanted. Th problem is the catholics seem to have ownership of the book too, is really not gods word but a bunch of people throughout the ages. How many times has it changed? 1000's so how could god get it wrong so many times?? Isn't s/he perfect?

• CitizenWhy | Mar 02, 2012, 01:29 PM EST

  Martin will never get a cardinal's hat. Many of the Vatican powerful cliques despise him for "disloyalty." Of course many in turn despise them for disloyalty to Christ. But they hold the power.

• ciaradexy | Mar 02, 2012, 01:12 PM EST

  Im guessing no one on this site will understand my post as sarcasm doesnt travel to the US. Time will tell.

• biggles008 | Mar 02, 2012, 12:52 PM EST

  Diarmuid Martin will eventually be canonized . He is a real down to earth man. God bless him.

• Murph46 | Mar 02, 2012, 12:48 PM EST

  Jetsnoone don't confuse pedophiles for homosexuals,though a common link they are different,a pedophile uses his "strengths" against children -those strengths may be his position ,his being accepted by families as untouchable as a priest,and whatever it takes to satisfy his lust.

• Bailey2000 | Mar 02, 2012, 12:47 PM EST

  Actually the church in Ireland is at broken point and not breaking point. The church up to and including the Vatican helped child abusers and was caught red handed. You simply cannot sit in a pew and look up and respect or love the church now. This is why the pews are empty....and will stay that way for at least 25 years

• McNamara31 | Mar 02, 2012, 12:32 PM EST

  God Bless Diarmuid Martin! He is a true man of God speaking truth on behalf of all who were victimized and for all the good priests who were forced to work alongside these monsters, as the bishops looked away and carried out the Vatican direction of "no direction" and cover up, for as long as they could. Diarmuid Martin knows all too well that this black time in church history has caused a demolition of faith worldwide. As a catholic who is still trying to grasp a reason to follow this church of my parents and grandparents, I truly hope with all my heart that the next Pope has the genuine faith and integrity of Archbishop Martin rather than the corporate minded code of the one who allowed this travesty to occur.

• PhlutiePhan | Mar 02, 2012, 11:46 AM EST

  Sure and begorrah, "60 Minutes" has an agenda and that preset idea does not include the good will of St. Bridget. To destroy the role of the mother and the family as the foundation of society immediately comes to mind. "A man's reach should exceed his grasp" has now groped for Ireland.

• Murph46 | Mar 02, 2012, 11:01 AM EST

  60 minutes is not a panacea for the truth,but at least it reflects societies wish to try and resolve some of the conflict.Until the RCC takes firm control and removes all pedophile priests,and punishes those who harbored them,nothing will happen!

• hermitTalker | Mar 02, 2012, 10:56 AM EST

  Could not open the cip, but did see the archbishop said the abuse crisis is not over. Neither will adultery, fornication, wife beating, drunkenesss cheating on exams/tests or lying to authorities. That all ends in heaven. I cannot see the pessimism of the archbishop's comments as a prophetic voice, IF this quote is the substance of his comments. The decline in seminary enrollment is decades old, there are a lot more reasons for it than blaming the recently uncovered sex abuse crisis. The Government still has not put a law on the books to protect minors, but the Pope and Ireland's bishops have,

• adrienrain | Mar 02, 2012, 10:04 AM EST

  The power of corrupt religion over people's minds should be broken. Forever.

• Rebelforce | Mar 02, 2012, 08:58 AM EST

  Ordinarilly, the lamestream newsmedia ignores Ireland, unless ofcourse there's something negative to report, then they are suddenly interested. Typical.

• eiriamach | Mar 02, 2012, 08:46 AM EST

  A moment of honesty--much needed! Will it continue until the "problem" has been dealt with?