Catholic church to lose stronghold on Irish education system

Given the stranglehold they had over it, perhaps that's not such a bad idea. After all, we are a republic.

I'm very proud to be Catholic having been raised by a wonderful Irish Catholic dad who was born in the early 1920's. His upbring was difficult but his teaching of the faith was lovely. It is because of him that I'll never leave the church. God bless his soul! We must pray for all priests, most of them are true to their vocation.

Church and State should be separate with the laws of the state caring for all. Canon law should be abolished. Members of the clergy should not be above the law of the land.

The Irish are finally acting like they have a brain. After being "generationally brain washed" by the Roman Catholic Hierarachy, they see what not "paying attention" truly means. Letting someone else do your thinking for you, will always end up with them in change and youlooking like a complete fool. That's what is but you're finally waking up to the reality of your neglect.Don't let them get a hold of your very being, as they have for millenium(s)

@barneyjo, I beggar to differ with you on this one. The present pope when he was head of the Congregation Of the Doctrine for the Faith, urged his Blessed predecessor John Paul 11 to hand over the case files for priests accused of sexual abuse to his office. Cardinal Josef Ratzinger as he was then, was emotionally effected by what he read. Previous to 2001, case-handling was very inadequate and wss spread over different Vatican congregations. By his actions, Ratzinger intended to expedite the application of Church law in these cases. Things are still far from perfect but the Vatican under this pope has considerably tightened up Church regulations concerning violation of minors. Newspapers such as the NY times have in vain tried to link Pope Benedict XVI to cover-ups in a few cases such as in Germany in the 80's and Minnesota in the 70's with regards to a particularly notorious pedophile case. In both instances there was a clear lack of evidence to back up the accusations which were nothing more than distortions of the facts. In 2005 during the obsequies for Pope John Paul 11, Cardinal Ratzinger used the powerful epithet 'filth' to describe the betrayal and sexual exploitation of the young by priests. He has also met on a number of occasions with victims of such abuse during his overseas journeys to different countries.

Sounds good to me. Separation of church and state is a good thing. Those who don't wish to educate their children via the Catholic church will now have a choice.

Ruairí Quinn Minister for education is right! If that gombeen is so interested in having national schools under the state patronage, instead of the Catholic Church, then let the government build the damn schools and pay for them - just as the Catholic Church did from day one. It's incredible how the government simply expects the Church to hand over the Patronage of these schools. Eaten bread is soon forgotten!!

Thank God. The union of church and state corrupts both.

I can't beleive the insidious abuse and betrayal of all Catholics, not only in Ireland continues to be played down so. If your serious in your concerns and the accountabilty, get a hold of Geoffery Robinsons book, The Case of the Pope: Vatican Accountability for Human Rights. It isn't derogatory against Benedict as it sounds, but really is worth reading. It shows how the Vatican beccame a member of the UN by stealth really, and the influence it has claimed worldwide and why the immunity it also claims is not valid, allowing it to get away with so much, it's incredible. We are all duped.

@Yankee724, to characterize the serial rape and molestation of children and systemic cover up of the same as "flaws", beggers the imagination. It is nothing less than rank criminality and should punished to the utmost extent of the law.I wouldn't be surprised if a frank talk w/ your daughters would make you wonder if your 25% saving was worth it.

I'm sorry, but I cannot share your opinion of the present Pope. In his previous role, Cardinal Josef Ratzinger as head of the Congregation for the propegation of the faith was well placed to know the scope and breadth of the harm caused by maverick priest abusers across the Catholic world. The trails of correspondence from bishops all leading to Rome containing pleas for assistance and direction in the handling of priest abusers do not serve to convince me of your assertion that Pope Benedict can be the leader of which you speak. Like many of his brother Bishops and priests, he has been damaged by this terrible problem. Regrettably, he is too much a part of the problem to allow him to be part of the solution.

@barneyjoe- The present pope is rather a good example of the man who is best to lead the Church globally. He nixes the humility and care of a humble pastor with the great intellect of a profound theologian steeped in Christ's teachings. At the level of the local Irish Catholic Church things in terms of leadership are not so clean-cut. As you have explained the credibility of the current and past members of the hierarchy has been shot to pieces by their cowardly cover-ups for the crimes of priests. The light in the tunnel might partially come through the recently high-powered Vatican delegations who investigated the state of priestly formation in seminaries and colleges around Ireland. Their reports may be crucial in pinpointing flaws in the present Irish system and their recommendations could help their eradication. Those steps will never be adequate in themselves. Above all we know prophetic voices from a hierarchy renewed by bishops not tainted with the much-publicised scandals. We also need a strong corps of laypeople taking up their full responsibilities in the Church in tandem with the clergy. I guess you might be skeptical regarding those prognostications, Barneyjo and wouldn't blame you. I understand your disillusionment but hopefully we can journey together as a pilgrim people to that source

@Gearoid4 - "A return to the Source which have nourished the roots of the Church for 2000 years is called for, namely Jesus Christ Himself" I agree totally, but who is there left to lead on that path who has not been so tainted by corruption, dishonesty and insincerity!!

@ronnie4u2o, While acknowledging the grave depth of the current abuse crisis which surrounds Catholicism, one can only say that if the institution was purely man-made it could not have lasted 2000 years. This is patently obvious when one considers the social and political upheavals which the Catholic Church had to face over the centuries. I think that if it was not for God's providence, then we would only be talking about Her in the past tense. The present crisis that the Church is mired in is due in large part to double-standards and toleration for sin in clerical and hierarchical circles with the concomitant loss of core Christian values. A return to the Source which have nourished the roots of the Church for 2000 years is called for, namely Jesus Christ Himself.

I am an American Catholic, and to send our two daughters to Catholic school for 12 years was the best thing we could have done. They got a "prep school" education for about 25% of the cost--with morality and truth about Jesus Christ as the biggest bonus. Yes, the Church has flaws, but the world with it's secular ignorance is much,much worse. Sad day for Ireland when it abandons its children to worldly ignorance.

@ marcustam. that's the best thing that could happen. the divisive hatred of all other faiths, beliefs and lifestyles that have proliferated from the catholic church for centuries has been the cause of so much war around the world. it is time to LIVE AND LET LIVE . and let our children do the same

The true fact of the matter is that Ruairi Quinn is a committed athiest who wants God out of schools altogether. Homosexual marriage and abortion are next on his list. When will people ever wise up and stop Catholic bashing, face the truth and realise what is really happening here?

@Gearoid4 - I think your view on the catholic ethos being pushed to the margains does not take sufficient account of the churches own in-house contribution to its present precarious state in countries across the world. I would also point to the very favourable examinaton results obtained by all pupils attending mixed state schools as well as the integrated schools in Northern Ireland. With particular regard to ROI, I think that if a meaningful alternative to the present system was widely available, in the current climate it would be extremely popular.

Now that some Truth has leaked out about our catholic Religion that was the creation of Man & not God the Father or Jesus, You can blame the corruption & Tainted teachings on Power Drunk Early church leaders & the Vatican who have had their head in the sand.they have known for over 1500 years they have had Corrupt Pedophile Priests, Bishops and Cardinals, and many Popes who were Rotten to the core,maybe it a sign from God that the church is in a state of collaps. Time for a Rebirth of a new Catholic Church.its nothing but a Corrupt Political Business with out a Soul !!

@Barneyjo I know that in Great Britain Catholic Schools on average take a sizable proportion of their pupil intake(up to a third) from the ethnic minorities which would include children from the backgrounds that you have referred to. The UK may be a different case in point compared to Ireland where the Catholic system has dominated for so long. OFSTED, the national organisation for local school inspectorates in the UK has recently praised the outstanding contribution that Catholic Schools have made across that country. They outshine their secularized equivalents practically in all departments. This pattern is repeated across Europe and the US. In relation to Ireland, I think the time is ripe for healthy changes with respect to the growth of alternative school sectors to the Catholic one. But this does not mean that the Catholic system should be completely shunned and driven completely into the margins.

@Gearoid4 - given the proliferation of Catholic influence in so many schools throughout Ireland, it occurs that the non-catholic parents you describe may have little choice but to send their children to their local school which, in large parts of Ireland WILL invariably be Catholic in ethos and outlook. From my own experience in Northern Ireland, non catholic ethnic families tend to send their children to state schools or increasingly to integrated schools. You wont find many Siekh, Muslim, Hindu, kids in Catholic colleges, and I think it is due precisely to the fact that most (if not all) would be dissuaded by the prevailing Catholic ethos. In the state schools where there are mixed faiths represented (ie Catholic and Protestant) the churches through the local priest or vicar participate in the life of the school but only insofar as the requirements of the respective faiths demand.

About time,long over due

errata in my last comment. Instead of 'none' send their children to school for the reasons that I have cited, I mean't 'they'( i.e the parents) send their children to school for the reasons that I have cited. Just a typo error, folks.

I don't disagree that the presentation of Christ in the past was somewhat distorted by a a pro-Calvinist,Jansenist approach to Christianity by the Irish Church. This infiltrated into the seminary and came out via the religious indoctrination in school, church and society. In many ways this strain of Christian thought was the very antithesis of Catholicism. It was indeed a very narrow, rigoristic mindset that focused very heavily on sexuality and the lures of the body. It separated body from spirit and it's oppressive after-effects are all too clear. But the present Catholic school system is a million miles from that. It's ethos is Christocentric and affirms both body and spirit. It's appeal radiates a lot further than the normal Catholic catchment area as a lot of parents from other religions and none send their children to these schools for the reasons that I have cited.

For many years we have been mislead by the Roman Catholic Church that has kept control of its members through fear, the likes no one can consistently explain. The Son of God had an agenda that was greatly distorted by Constantine and other Roman Leaders that preached that God was a punishing brutal force that was to be feared until we died and even then had doubts about reaching a peaceful resting place. What a crock!!! After investigation we(I) and the rest of my lovely Irish family, extended far and wide as well as my close friends, now understand God as a loving entity and is available for help all the time. We do not need interloping ministers to help us and certainly one's who abuse our precious children. Thank you God for an Irish network that will educate our children in a very knowledgeable and well-rounded atmosphere. you can discuss religion, but remember most organized groups can really screw up the works.

@Gearoid4- your right , Nothing would please me more than to remove all education from under the control any church. Church and state should be separate. Religious Education should be eradicated from schools. Religious beliefs should be a personal choice. It should not be rammed down their children's throats or beaten into them as it was in the Good old Days. My left-handed brother was often beaten for writing with his left hand because "IT WAS DEVILS WORK". Please don't tell me that you believe that Christian brother was "Doing God's Work".Straight to hell for him.

@Gearoid4 - You say that the Catholic ethos STILL has a lot to contribute to the building of Irish Society; in light of the recent social history of Ireland I would contend that it has in fact contributed to the destruction of Irish society. Clerical abuse and adoption of double standards not excepting the influnce of the Catholic Church has been a malign one particulary on the development of self awareness and personal responsibility in past generations. In that sense, I consider myself as a victim of abuse of a kind because I was strictly limited in the development of my awareness of myself and how I could be an effective witness to God's presence in my life, for others to see and to know. The catholic education was wholly inadequate to allow me to undertake that important mission.Is it any wonder that I am one of many who feel that we were sold a pup by mother church!!

It is only fair that the Catholic Church relinquishes hold over a proportion of schools under it's patronage to reflect the changing religious demographics of the Republic of Ireland. Saying that, I think that the Catholic ethos has still a lot to contribute to the building of Irish society. Catholic schools are globally recognized for their academic,religious and social excellence. Nothing would please the irish secular/irreligious media pundits more than to see the demise of Catholic and other religious schools. But this is not going to happen and the religiously-committed parents must see that it does not. This story is one amongst many that have bee pouring out from the IC newswire to pummel the Catholic Church. But it will still be present long after IC bites the dust.

As a pupil who played Rugby & Cricket with all religions in Dublin, I am sure that Ireland's success at these sports is due to their world-wide acceptance & NOT, as was said in my school-days, BRITISH GAMES. Ireland is growing up fast - long may it continue. The Catholic Religion is tainted now so let's get some of the mixture from other religions which makes them succeed even if outnumbered.

About bloody time.