Several leading priests in Ireland are predicting a “Catholic Spring” as dissent against the Vatican decision to ban Father Tony Flannery grows.
The Daily Beast website has reported that leading priests now believe that the Vatican has gone too far in silencing Father Flannery who has been sent to a monastery to reflect on his actions.The Association of Catholic Priests, which has 800 members, has already come out strongly against the silencing.
Another leading priest, Father Sean MacDonagh, a founder of the ACP, has now strongly criticised the Vatican move.
"It is a bit like Walmart, where you have the CEO in Rome and his people there decide on policy and then insist that the bishops, as branch managers, implement that policy,” he told the Irish Examiner.
"If Rome says ‘jump’ are we simply expected to say, ‘how high?’ Operating like a multinational where the number one requirement is obedience is at total variance with the Church of Jesus," said Fr McDonagh.
He defended the calls for women to play a more active and equal role, "In the first century, it was possible to articulate the message of Jesus and not have females in leadership roles because the culture of the time would not allow it and there was a very dark perception of what women were.
But, now, in the 21st century, the Church must discern where the Holy Spirit is leading it, and the Vatican should not be leading it backwards."
"Freedom of speech does not operate here when, in fact, the Church should be an example in that respect to others," said Fr McDonagh. Meanwhile an Irish Times editorial has stated that sending Flannery to a monastery for prayer and reflection may rebound and that the Vatican is wrong to regard him as a ‘turbulent priest.’ It stated that the decision to discipline him will increase the perception of a “disconnect” between Rome and Ireland.
The Times editorial stated, “The domestic reaction, from sections of the laity and some clergy, to the Vatican’s disciplinary action has been one of regret and concern. The ACP (Association of Catholic Priests) has described the Vatican’s intervention as “unfair, unwarranted and unwise”.
And it may well, as the association has warned, increase the public perception of a significant “disconnect” between the Irish church and Rome.
Fr Flannery has spent many years developing the views that he now holds, views that were no doubt influenced and shaped by prayer and reflection. But six more weeks spent in silent isolation in a monastery engaged in further prayerful reflection may not produce the outcome the Vatican now hopes from its disciplining of one it, wrongly, regards as a turbulent priest.
The Daily Beast reports that, “The Vatican has been watching Father Tony Flannery for a long time”.
They also identified the following paragraph as the one that most landed Flannery in trouble after he wrote it.
“Opening up the ministry of the church to laypeople, to married people, to priests, to women. In other words, not confining it to the male celibate priesthood as we’ve had in the past, because clearly that is not working now, so we have to begin to think in different ways, but the Vatican is increasingly forbidding any discussion on that,” he wrote. "Many of us priests are very frustrated with the way the Vatican conducts its business.”
Daliy Beast reports that “A growing number of Catholic bloggers say the movement has the makings of what could be considered the beginning of a Catholic Spring uprising,” pointing out the statement by the Association of Catholic Priests.
That statement read, “We affirm in the strongest possible terms our confidence in and solidarity with Father Flannery and we wish to make clear our profound view that this intervention is unfair, unwarranted and unwise,”
“We wish to register our extreme unease and disquiet at the present development, not least the secrecy surrounding such interventions and the questions about due process and freedom of conscience that such interventions surface.”
Brendan Butler of the lay Irish church lobby group, “We are Church Ireland”, told the Daily Beast that the move “amounted to a return to the Inquisition” and that the current Holy See governing body is worrying. “They are trying to bring our church back into rigid authoritarian centralized structures where all dissent is dealt with in a ruthless manner.”
Another prominent priest, Father Gabriel Daly, wrote in a priest’s publication called “Doctrine Life” that the church was attempting to silence all dissent and he seemed to be risking suspension himself.
“Aided by secrecy and the unchallenged exercise of power, the Curia has established effective control over the whole church,” he wrote in this week’s edition. “There is little or no concern for those faithful Catholics who are quietly appalled by what is happening. They are seen as simply wrong.”
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.| Apr 22, 2012, 12:20 PM EDT
There will always be weak interpretations of Scripture for a variety of reasons and agendas but again this exists within the RC church as much as within any of the Protestant denominations you refer to because it's clear from reading any amount of the comments expressed within this article and from talking to RC people that they don't believe half of the official doctrines and so that might explain the nominal character of most Roman Catholics and their faith. Putting the authority back into Scripture where it always should have been however prevents this from happening and points everyone through its truths to the need for a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ
| Apr 22, 2012, 12:20 PM EDT
But when God's Word is placed in its correct role then this means that all doctrine and church teaching will come from it and by having it as our final authority, it means that we are accepting that it contains all teaching necessary for salvation. This isn't a case of Protestant versus Roman Catholic essentially, it's a case of letting the Bible speak through the Holy Spirit.
| Apr 22, 2012, 12:19 PM EDT
The definition of 'Church' within the New Testament is the people of God and not an institutional body, and that includes the RC church and all other denominations. The Church comprises of all believers everywhere and it is this that the gates of hell will not prevail against. You mention that the RC church has always felt that it is not an option to pick and choose from scripture but all over the years the RC church has, although retaining reverence for the Bible, added the teachings of tradition to the eternal truths contained within the Bible, thus meaning the Bibles's teachings are never it's final authority and subsequently meaning that the RC church will always be able to manoeuvre on its doctrine and teaching through man-authorised concepts such as church councils and papal infallibility to name but a couple.
| Apr 22, 2012, 12:19 PM EDT
Hi Marsaili, respectfully this is where yourself and I completely diverge on this issue in that case. As I've said, the John 20 account being read out of context has been used to justify the creation of another sacrament when this was never necessary. Christ's death on the cross does expiate for all sins past, present and future but that doesn't mean we don't need to repent and confess our sins before God through Christ. But the need for a human priest is simply not there. Catholic priests are not direct successors to the apostles, that simply is without scriptural support and again is founded more so on tradition than any scriptural reference.
eiriamach | Apr 19, 2012, 02:55 PM EDT
Fr. Flannery knew the danger of writing about a non-traditional priesthood: "but the Vatican is increasingly forbidding any discussion on that.” However, he drew courage from knowing the difference between dogma or settled doctrine, on the one hand, and customs or traditions that can and do change, on the other hand. By contrast, some people posting here seem to regard every word coming from the Vatican as infallible. Nonsense! Very few words from popes have had the stamp of infallibility, and not many are even "doctrine." Fr. Flannery is as much a part of the teaching Magisterium as the pope is. In demanding silence on the idea of non-celibate or female priests, the pope knows that he is driving out of the Church the Catholics who can and do think about moral issues. Or, as John Allen concluded a year ago, writing in NCRonline about Pew Research on the huge exodus from RC, "Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst." The worst are those who have such a desperate need for someone "in authority" to do their thinking for them that they actually defend the Vatican's despicable censorship, along with the corrupt power politics of the US bishops and the appalling silence of the Irish bishops.
Marsaili | Apr 17, 2012, 11:46 AM EDT
Hi alkil, you are correct that there is but one mediator between man and God - that is our Lord Jesus Christ. And yet, Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself told His apostles that what sins they forgive are then forgiven. If Christ's passion and death on the Cross were meant to expiate for all sins, including all future sins that any Christian could ever possibly commit, then there would be no need for Our Lord to tell the apostles this. All Catholic priests (and yes, even the bad ones) are direct successors to the original apostles. Our Lord told his apostles that He would be with them until the end of the world, and also that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. He told the apostles to go out to all nations to teach ALL that He had taught, and this is what His Church has always strived to do, even though humans within the Church have been weak, negligent, and sinful at times in doing so. The Church has always felt that it is not an option to pick and choose, from scripture, what we want to believe; rather it takes all of scripture (and tradition) into account. As a former Protestant myself, I am familiar with the practice of private interpretation of scripture, since I used to do that myself. And yet with so many Protestant denominatons, there are as many different interpretations...but there can be only one proper interpretation. And as truth does not change, and human nature has not changed, the Church is ever only teaching what it has always taught, though certain things are sometimes clarified in a new manner of course.
alkil29 | Apr 17, 2012, 08:19 AM EDT
Thus in the John 20 account Jesus was again directing His apostles as to the means by which a person can find forgiveness, not instructing or empowering them themselves to forgive or withhold forgiveness. I hope this finds you well and once again makes sense to you :)
alkil29 | Apr 17, 2012, 08:18 AM EDT
There remains somewhat of a problem however concerning church tradition within the RC church because I can fully empathise that it is extremely difficult for someone like yourself who is trying to be a 'faithful' follower of that church to go against it's teaching on this issue. But I fully believe that the Bible teaches that there is 'only one mediator between man and God' - that is our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).
alkil29 | Apr 17, 2012, 08:18 AM EDT
Our confession should be a private affair in prayer to God. This is how Christ in effect supercedes the Old Testament sacrificial system in that once only the High Priest of Israel could offer sacrifices i.e lambs etc for the sins of God's people but NOW Christ being 'the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world' has superceded this requirement and we can go directly to God. Christ is our great high priest as I say. The letter to the Hebrews describes much better Christ's priestly function particularly chap 3:1-6 and chap 4:14-16 if you'd like a wee read.
alkil29 | Apr 17, 2012, 08:18 AM EDT
This I can't reconcile to the Scriptures. Christ died and rose again for the sins of those who would believe and He is our Great High Priest interceding all our prayers to God being seated at God's right hand in heaven. Jesus on earth was God incarnate which was the statement He was trying to make and demonstrate to the Scribes etc when he told the paralytic that his sins were forgiven. Now since Jesus' death on the cross tore down the barrier between sinners and God, hence the imagery of the temple curtain being torn, this means that we can go directly to God through Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
alkil29 | Apr 17, 2012, 08:17 AM EDT
The need for repentance or penance is always there for obviously someone before they come to know Christ but also for the Christian who must continually bring His sins before God in obedience. Christ is the only means of reconciling sinners to God as you rightly say. I guess where I have misgivings about the teachings of the RC church on this particular issue is where it was felt necessary to create another sacrament for this purpose and the church has thus turned the act of forgiving sins into some sort of process with a human priest.
alkil29 | Apr 17, 2012, 08:16 AM EDT
Hi Marsaili, I really didn’t mean for this comment to be so long but as it is it’s had to be posted as a number of parts. I've really enjoyed reading your last comment and Fr Duffner's explanation. It would appear to me that in terms of the need to 'apply to people the fruits won by His passion and death' then what we both appear to be saying are quite similar things.
alkil29 | Apr 17, 2012, 08:16 AM EDT
Sorry Marsaili but I have been trying to reply to you for a while now but comments aren't posting!
Marsaili | Apr 16, 2012, 03:39 PM EDT
Hi alkil29, I think I understand your interpretation of this paticulat part of scripture. I'll quote Fr. Paul Duffner, O.P., since he gives a much better explanation than I can regarding this issue: "Christ comes through the medium of the external sacramental rites of the Church, to act personally with His hidden power to apply to souls the fruits won by His passion and death. In this sacrament of Penance, then, Christ perpetuates, through His Church, His work of reconciling sinners with God by remitting their sins." "All through His public ministry, the message of our Blessed Lord was one of repentance: "Unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.(Luke 13:5). Only God can forgive sin. When our Lord said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you," the Scribes were murmuring among themselves, "Who can forgive sin, but only God?" (Mk 2:5). They were correct in their statement that only God can forgive sin, even though Christ said to His apostles, "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them." He conferred on them the power to forgive sin, but to forgive sin In His Name. In this sacrament, Christ operates through the priest pronouncing the words of absolution." So Christ's passion is the cause for the forgivenss of sins, but it has to be applied to individuals for the purpose of cleansing persoanl sins, firstly by baptism, and then penance, and other sacraments, which obtain their power from Christ's passion. Hope this makes sense.
alkil29 | Apr 16, 2012, 11:11 AM EDT
Hi Marsaili, Thanks for your considerate reply. I was actually aware of this teaching within the Roman Catholic church. However my interpretation of these verses aren't so much that Jesus was giving the Apostles the responsibility to forgive or to not forgive sins but to point people to the one who by His sacrifice has done everything necessary for the forgiveness of those sins. I can see how these particular verses have brought about the sacrament of penance but to say that Jesus was giving his apostles the power to do this and subsequently all priests in the future I believe is inaccurate. Now obviously the sacrament of penance has been formed and this is official Roman Catholic teaching and it wouldn't be my intention to cause offence to any practicing Roman Catholic save to say that only God can forgive sins and this was what God incarnate, Jesus Christ, was putting across in these verses. Sin is what separates us from God but Jesus through his death and resurrection defeated sin once and for all. Does this make any sense to you or do you find that you simply could never agree with my interpretation?
Marsaili | Apr 15, 2012, 08:50 PM EDT
Intercessor, the article by Jonn Allen actually says that Pope Paul Vl told the United Nations that the Church likes to think of itself as an expert in humanity. The article doesn't mention that the pope used the term "Vatican". The Church is perfect - the spotless bride of Christ. Those human beings that live and work within the Church - not so much. Some are extremely sinful, of course. Even the Apostles were prone to disbelief, worldliness, and cowardice. There have always been sinful people in the Church. Ireland has suffered greatly, but it's likely that some of the accusations are unfounded. Many people will use the problems of sinful Catholics to show that the Church is wrong, when in fact they just plain don't like the Catholic Church under any circumstances whatsoever. The problems in Ireland only serve to give reason for anti-Catholicism.
Intercessor | Apr 15, 2012, 08:01 PM EDT
In today's National Catholic Reporter, author John Allen Jr. quoted the Pope as saying, "The Vatican is an EXPERT on Humanity!" Ireland has seen firsthand, the "Humanity of the Vatican," in the way in which the Church endorsed the coverups of her "Humane" Pedophile Priests, who as an example of their "humanity," raped, molested, sodomized and often sadistically punished children and teens under their care. I hope that when dissent against the Vatican grows that the Pope is reminded how INHUMANE the Vatican has been in recent years and not just in the past years of the Crusades, Inquisitions, Forced Conversions, etc.......
Marsaili | Apr 15, 2012, 06:48 PM EDT
Hi alkil29, I appreciate your thoughtful and charitable post below. I understand that non-Catholics (and a lot of Catholics) aren't aware of the Biblical support for the sacrament of Penance, where Catholic priests were given, by our Lord Jesus, the authority to forgive sins in God's name. If you take a look at John Chapter 20, 21-23, (after our Lord's the Resurrection) you'll see that this is the case: 21. [Jesus] said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained." So it has ever been thus that priests have listened to confessions, and granted absolution, or withheld it, just as Our Lord Jesus told His Apostles to do. There are other Biblical sources supporting the need for confession and penance, but I thought that this would be a good start. God bless!
alkil29 | Apr 15, 2012, 06:00 PM EDT
Marsaili I agree with what you are saying on the most part and this is something which the AOCP membership needs to consider plus all their supporters but the only way to ultimately be in a state of grace and to enter heaven for all eternity is to believe in what the Lord Jesus Christ DID for us on the cross - He took all our sins upon himself and died so that we can be forgiven through faith in Him. Now if Catholic teaching from the pulpit expresses this truth loud and clear then by hearing it people can be saved and forgiven but anything short of this or indeed in addition to it will not cut the mustard. God bless :)
Marsaili | Apr 14, 2012, 05:12 PM EDT
It's unfortunate that those 800 priests (are there really 800 priests in all of Ireland?) are supporting with Fr. Flannery's dissent. But Rome is not likely to change its mind about Fr. Flannery. The priests who support Fr. Flannery can complain all they want, but since the Church is not and never has been a democracy, they cannot win - ever. My hope is that they carefully consider the situation, as well as read about the lives of the saints and the strong belief in God which they had. If a Catholic is to gain Heaven when he or she leaves this world, then he or she must be in a state of grace, without unconfessed grave sins. Those priests who support Fr. Flannery, do they believe in such a thing as sin? Do they teach proper Catholic teaching from the pulpit? Are they themselves in a state of grace so that they can truly be a shining light and beacon of strength to others? The Catholic Faith exists so that all may gain Heaven one day, because death is a reality for all of us one day - are these priests preparing us for that eventuality? Or do they only care about what's seemingly fair in human secular terms?
FlanneryT | Apr 14, 2012, 12:59 AM EDT
Well what the hell did Fr.Flannery say anyway? Silly Pope.... thinks he can talk to god...
Collette2 | Apr 14, 2012, 12:29 AM EDT
Well, he was left like a shag on a rock from what I can gather, unless there's an ulterior motive somewhere. I wouldn't trust any of them, who chose not to buck the system decades ago.
MCCOLGAN1492 | Apr 13, 2012, 07:30 PM EDT
Goergie "the Wanker" Dillon and Steven"Irish Malcolm X" Star, deserve to spend eternity in hell together. What a couple of Maroons!!!!
barneyjo | Apr 13, 2012, 06:20 PM EDT
@georgedillon - Curiously enough, in my last year at Belfast College for Young Offenders, I applied for place on a PHD Course in Brutality, but I failed due to the fact that I was judged NOT to be nasty enough Could have done with some pointers from yourself George (3/10, Oh and "watch out for that tree!!)
petbra | Apr 13, 2012, 06:08 PM EDT
We need a Paddy Luther here in Ireland: someone with the charisma, courage and intelligence to break away from the Vatican (Rome): form a new church. Call it the Real Irish Church (RIC). Oops, some hope of that happening! Anyway, that's what the Scandinavians did, the English. The problem is that Irish priests are like sheep. Not one original theological ideas from nay of them ever. What a bunch of imbeciles.
STEVENSTAR | Apr 13, 2012, 06:05 PM EDT
@@@IrelandNorth | Apr 13, 2012, 05:46 AM EDT STEVENSTAR! You're still SHOUTING! Volume is no substitute for rational argument. Nobody's buying a Northern-Irisih/British Protestant masquerading as a liberal Irish Roman Catholic to drive a wedge between the Irish and Irish-America. All orthodoxies suck! Free your minds. Read the Gnostic Gospels.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MATE WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? IRISH ARE IRISH WE ARE NOT AMERICAN THE TWO CULTURES ARE WORLDS APART.. ANY AMERICAN I HAVE EVER MET BE THEY TRYING TO BE IRISH OR JUST AMERICAN PERSONALITY WISE CULTURE, HUMOR, EBVER THE WAY WE DRESS ARE POLAR OPPOSITES .. JUST CAUSE YOUR GREAT GRANNY WAS IRISH DOES NOT MAKE YOU IRISH MARE AND ALSO US IRISH WE DONT WANT TO BE AMERICANISED THANKS WE LIKE OUR OWN CULTURE TOO MUCH..
SeamusMartin | Apr 13, 2012, 04:30 PM EDT
All these posts seem to come from a Monty Python script. Congrats you're all destined to be comedians. But the truth that all ye seek is the fact that there are many road to Heaven. We all can travel different paths to get there. Jesus said, "My Father's house has many rooms." Which I interpret that, yes, lots of room for believers, that includes rooms for those of different faiths. I would cherish an Catholic Spring now is the time for a Catholic Reformation. Up Father Flannery!
TayandCake | Apr 13, 2012, 03:21 PM EDT
catholic spring, sounds tacky not much will turn up to that in so called catholic ireland where islam and buddhism are more practiced than the italian church. if theres any spring its spring to your senses and sling these latin lovers out of old dear Ireland.
GeorgeDillon | Apr 13, 2012, 12:46 PM EDT
Barneyjoe: What community college issued you with a Masters? Why didn't you pay the extra ten bucks and get a Ph.D?
Schon | Apr 13, 2012, 10:37 AM EDT
If Pope Bennie says it youse Roman Catholics in Ireland must jump. He is God incarnate on this Earth. (Well that's what I've been lead to believe.) Anyway, has anyone looked at the weather here? It's a bit cold for Spring and I can't see anybody going out for a good riot for change here in Ireland. Us peace loving Irish will only ever rebel against the Brits and Pope Bennie is a German so he's bound to be well in with the Irish Republicans. Cuchie ar la
Portia777 | Apr 13, 2012, 10:01 AM EDT
Christopher1978 But, these people, in solidarity with this Fr. Flannery, are heretics. They have lost the gift if Divine Faith, and have placed themselves outside the Holy Catholic Church. LOL...so much for freedom of thought then? What Holly Roman Catholic church. Yes, I wrote Holly to remind you of where the word came from - Druid priests- so called pagans. The word Holy really means WHOLE and that refers to the fe male- the complete being you are trying to describe below.S/He does not have 2 heads- just one with male and fe combined.
esatdigiwank | Apr 13, 2012, 07:14 AM EDT
Catholic Spring uprising:- Boo Hoo! So flippin' what. Rottweiler von Vatican will be very aggrieved ). Irish minds are still colonised by Rome no matter what. Catholic dissolution is most welcome, rather. Some Stateside posters here sound like they believe Barney the Dinosaur is a real individual who has a ZIP code, rofl.
alkil29 | Apr 13, 2012, 06:39 AM EDT
The saddest thing about Irish society nowadays is that in the main they seem to have no moral compass on anything and I don't want that comment to be portrayed as an attack and so I'll try to explain. I'm not a Roman Catholic and I don't know a lot of things about Roman Catholicism but I try to keep informed as much as possible about most things and as a Christian, about Christianity in particular. The lack of moral direction for many years now from the Roman Catholic church has caused a lot of pain. Now for me this inevitably comes from RC church teaching in the first place where authority has been placed with MAN rather than with God through His Holy Scriptures. Many things have subsequently flowed from that position such as all over the years the status of 'the priest' in Irish Society but then again Ireland was always a very hierarchial society. So much more could be said but sadly what has happened now is that with movements such as the AOCP and opinion of 'the laity' in general - there are calls to move in all sorts of directions which are reactions against the abuses which have occurred. I don't know how much weight to place on different surveys quoted but like many people who identify as Roman Catholics I have always believed ministers in God's church can marry (doesn't mean necessarily that they will however). My reading of Scripture doesn't allow me to accept women in a headship role however women should be able to serve in ministries throughout the Church without any protest. But I can never accept gay marriage or homosexual ministers / priests because that is completely against God's creation purposes although I don't agree that having that stance makes me a homophobic as I will try and love everyone in line with Jesus' teaching. The answer isn't to liberalise everything, it's to try and draw the RC church back to the Bible in it's doctrine and practice
IrelandNorth | Apr 13, 2012, 05:46 AM EDT
STEVENSTAR! You're still SHOUTING! Volume is no substitute for rational argument. Nobody's buying a Northern-Irisih/British Protestant masquerading as a liberal Irish Roman Catholic to drive a wedge between the Irish and Irish-America. All orthodoxies suck! Free your minds. Read the Gnostic Gospels.
STEVENSTAR | Apr 12, 2012, 07:20 PM EDT
@@@@Irishphotograph | Apr 12, 2012, 02:52 PM EDT "As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” (Acts 10:25-26) The Romanist Pope deserves nothing from the Irish People. Lets remove Rome from Ireland once and for all and bring back the Irish Celtic Christian Church. Where it is Jesus we exalt and no other.>>>>>>> EXCUSE ME .. BUT WHO ARE YOU TO SAY BRING BACK THE IRISH CELTIC CHURCH.. ARE YOU IRISH? DO U LIVE HERE IN IRELAND? WERE YOU BORN HERE IN IRELAND? MAYBE WE DONT WANT IT OVER HERE. MAYBE WE ARE JUST HAPPY THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING? IF YOU ASK ME CHRISTIANS ESPECIALLY AMERICAN ONES ARE WAY TOO EXTREME FOR OUR TASTES OVER HERE IN IRELAND AND CERTAINLY THE WAY AMERICAN CHRISTIANS ARE PORTRAYED OVER HERE IS NOT A WAY WE WOULD WANT TO GO ..
STEVENSTAR | Apr 12, 2012, 07:09 PM EDT
NEW STATISTICS HERE SHOW ONLY 35% OF IRISH CATHOLICS NOW GOTO MASS.. 70% BELIEVE PRIESTS SHOULD MARRY SOMETHING LIKE 78% BELIEVE IN GAY MARRIAGE AND SOMETHING LIKE 65% BELIEVE IN WOMEN PRIESTS .. THESE STATICTICS CAME OUT HERE TODAY .. THESE STATS ARE A FAR CRY FROM THE AMERICAN HOLLYWOOD IMAGE OF IRELAND BUT TO THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO IRELAND IT WILL PROBABLY COME AS A SURPRISE TO YOU.. LIKE IM SURE A LOT OF OTHER THINGS ABOUT IRELAND AND WE IRISH WILL COME AS A SURPRISE TO YOU ...
barneyjo | Apr 12, 2012, 05:51 PM EDT
@GeorgeDillon - Oh drat!!! and here's me thinking that my Masters in moral philosophy would get me some place!! You've let me down yet again George. At very least I thought that you would emphasise your displeasure at my remarks by putting Caps on "Intellectual Parasite" But that's vanity for you; the downside of a Classical Catholic Education, here in Ireland. Our College motto (in Latin) was (is) "NEMO TE CONFUNDENT ILLIGITIMAE" and you know what George, I never have, and never will. 2/10 George (try harder next time) :)
barneyjo | Apr 12, 2012, 05:50 PM EDT
@GeorgeDillon - Oh drat!!! and here's me thinking that my Masters in moral philosophy would get me some place!! You've let me down yet again George. At very least I thought that you would emphasise your displeasure at my remarks by putting Caps on "Intellectual Parasite" But that's vanity for you; the downside of a Classical Catholic Education, here in Ireland. Our College motto (in Latin) was (is0 "NEMO TE CONFUNDENT ILLIGITIMAE" and you know what George, I never have, and never will. 2/10 George (try harder next time) :)
Christopher1978 | Apr 12, 2012, 05:21 PM EDT
Bythebay, to simply call you dishonest would be a kindness. For one, the Catholic Church put the Bible together in Her councils. The New Testament was written by adherents to the Catholic Faith. Read history! The arrogance spewing from the willfully ignorant here is putrid. The Catholic Church has outlasted every Empire and Dynasty in the world, and you think that this is going to be the end of Her? And, BTB, you say Rome does not recognize the Irish Saints! You are a flat out liar. I do not have the time to retype all that did not post, but I must say, you pop-culture pseudo-intellectuals need to start reading more than articles written by people that you agree with. Read books. Not fantasy, or novels, but real books. I am sure you can do it. It might open your mind where it needs opening, and close it where it needs closing.
Christopher1978 | Apr 12, 2012, 05:09 PM EDT
OK, my second post is not posting. That is ver unfortunate. I see my third post… frustration… I will have to revisit those ideas in a moment...
Christopher1978 | Apr 12, 2012, 04:58 PM EDT
Freedom of Conscience! Ha! You are a funny one! You do understand the idea of correctly forming your conscience, right? A malformed conscience is a horrible thing. Now, if you have an idea or belief that is contradicting Church teaching, you have a duty to better study and research this doctrine, and why the Church teaches what She teaches. You may not, as a Catholic, disregard Church teaching. You may question it because of your misunderstanding, but you cannot reject it. You are obliged to study until you understand, and through this process, know God better and have a strengthened Faith.
eiriamach | Apr 12, 2012, 04:40 PM EDT
@GeorgeD, I'm as far from fundamentalism as it gets whereas you seem to be the archetype of Catholic fundamentalist. I might obsess about the state of Christianity in the 21st century, but I would not give a thought to RC if you RC folks would just proclaim the truth-- that you're not Christians. @Christopher1978, marriage with a "leader" is a preposterous idea. The ACP has challenged NO infallible dogma: check it out. Fr. Flannery is no heretic, but you, who reject the sensus fidelium along with freedom of conscience (see dignitatis humanae), might be one. And the role of women in any Christian Church is certainly a matter of equality, which is integral to the Gospels.
patrick1313 | Apr 12, 2012, 04:36 PM EDT
It is long overdue that this priest has been asked to reflect on his teaching, contrary to that of his church, and to discern his future within the church, God willing he will do the right thing. As for an 'Irish spring' uprising - I will pray for your conversion when you leave the church!
eiriamach | Apr 12, 2012, 04:18 PM EDT
Bythebay and markday, thanks for the replies. The Amarach survey indicates that Bythebay is right about older Irish Catholics. In answer to the question "Do you believe that the Catholic Church's teachings on sexuality are relevant to you or your family?" 34% of respondents aged 55 said yes, while 80% of 25-34-year-olds said no (82% of 45-54's said no)--a huge difference if I read the chart correctly. I agree, markday, that many "put their lives in neutral and simply coast, letting those in charge do their thinking for them." It's obvious in some IC comments, but a certain mean-spiritedness about it makes me suspect that this attitude is not just laziness but a need bred into them by Catholic training. They have so much respect for, or deep need for, authority that they will always defer to Church officials and defend them, right or wrong. That training taps into something in human nature which is not healthy, IMHO.
CelticQueenUSA | Apr 12, 2012, 04:14 PM EDT
Bring on the spring and its cleansing!
Christopher1978 | Apr 12, 2012, 03:59 PM EDT
The idea that a female priestess would not be accepted in the first century is ludicrous. There were many religions with priestesses. It was normal in the first century to have priestesses. The real issue here is one of roles. It is a matter of equal dignity, and disparate roles. Who is the most exalted of creatures? Oh! A woman! Yes, Mary, our Blessed Mother. For a woman to say she feels called to be a priest is akin to the moon saying it is called to be the sun. They are incompatible ideas. These questions are not about equality. Like in a marriage. There cannot be two leaders in a marriage. Any creature with two heads is a monster, and a marriage with two people competing to be head is monstrous, and leads to divorce and/or a hellish home life. Equality in dignity, separation in roles. The husband is to be the head of the household, while the wife is the heart of the household. It is proper order. Now, the idea of a priest being able to preach and teach whatever he wants is absurd. When it comes to the teachings of the Church that have been dogmatically defined (infallibly taught) there is no longer room for dissent or debate. The question had already gone through that process, and the definitive answer, which MUST be held by ALL Catholics has been hashed out. There are those questions and theological ideas that have not been hashed out, and that is for theologians to have at. The Vatican had a duty to silence this priest in lieu of the inaction of this priest's bishop. As for this "Catholic Spring" you are hoping to instigate, well, we have heresies pop up here there and everywhere. In all times, and in most places. But, these people, in solidarity with this Fr. Flannery, are heretics. They have lost the gift if Divine Faith, and have placed themselves outside the Holy Catholic Church.
GeorgeDillon | Apr 12, 2012, 03:40 PM EDT
Some demure posters such as eiramach have suddenly developed a sensibility about tough language. What hypocrites. These same posters have been spewing out Protestant fundamentalist bile about Catholicism for months. I say to eiramach and the rest of her clowns' chorus--Stop parasitically obsessing about the Catholic Church. It's not your church. It's ours. Go run with the Bible Bums. Good Riddance to Bigots.
GeorgeDillon | Apr 12, 2012, 03:39 PM EDT
Some demure posters such as eiramach have suddenly developed a sensibility about tough language. What hypocrites. These same posters have been spewing out Protestant fundamentalist bile about Catholicism for months. I say to eiramach and the rest of her clowns' chorus--Stop parasitically obsessing about the Catholic Church. It's not your church. It's ours. Go run with the Bible Bums. Good Riddance to Bigots.
snakehips | Apr 12, 2012, 03:32 PM EDT
It is so apparent, if not so pathetic that the Church of Rome is throwing a party and no one is attending. It is again about time to throw open the doors and let some fresh air in. For an institution that has been so historically talented in maintaining itself, it looks like there are signs that the road is coming to an end, at least in Ireland. Maybe God can intervene and save these sad people from themselves.
SeamusMor | Apr 12, 2012, 03:07 PM EDT
Portia: "That would mean you wish him to be a robot and not use his own divine right to think for himself?" Everyone has the right to think and speak for themselves, however only those in authority can speak for the Church. To use the vernacular military analogy, the priest is acting above his pay grade. The Holy Spirit, not parish priests,inform the Pope on matters of Church doctrine.
Irishphotograph | Apr 12, 2012, 02:52 PM EDT
"As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” (Acts 10:25-26) The Romanist Pope deserves nothing from the Irish People. Lets remove Rome from Ireland once and for all and bring back the Irish Celtic Christian Church. Where it is Jesus we exalt and no other.
PhlutiePhan | Apr 12, 2012, 02:45 PM EDT
Bring it on! The world wide socialist movement warned of by Malachi Martin is alive and well. All of the problems within the Church of Ireland were exported from the good ol' U.S. of A. What would St. Patrick have said? "Maewyn Succat" would have said that the Druids have returned with their worship of the Sun instead of the Son.
markday | Apr 12, 2012, 02:44 PM EDT
Several bloggers are telling the critical thinkers on this site: "Conform to Church teachings, or leave." "Don't call yourselves Catholics," or "Leave ther rest of us Catholics alone." It seems to me that down deep, the poblem here intellectual and spiiritual laziness. These people put their lives in neutral and simply coast, letting those in charge do their thinking for them. Assent to doctrines, to the one, true church, to the magisterium, is enough. There are no existential risks, no real demands, no adherence to the messy part of Christ's message--to reach out to the poor, to struggle for peace and justice, to live simply, to defend the rights of women and children. No, if you want to do that, if you want to hold your leaders accountable--then you must be a Protestant, or an atheist. Why this mentality has such a grip on the Irish is understandable historically, but it is really sad. I welcome the Irish Catholic spring! I hope it crosses the pond. We need one here in the U.S. as well.
eiriamach | Apr 12, 2012, 02:22 PM EDT
I count nearly half the commenters here as supporting the silencing of Fr. Flannery and the ACP. Can anyone explain why there is such disproportion between ultra-conservative views and the views expressed on the Amárach survey I referred to below? Reading through the survey "Contemporary Catholic Perspectives," I'd estimate that more than three-quarters of Irish Catholics share all the ACP's ideas about reform. (Probably most other Christians and agnostics/ atheists who care about these matters also approve.) Why is the small minority who favor absolute Vatican control so numerous on IC, and why so vocal? And why do they apparently enjoy calling the rest of us names or telling us to shut up and go away (viz. Georgieboy again). I'd expect Irish Central to have a more representative sampling of comments ... or have the RC temple police targeted IC for some reason?
GeorgeDillon | Apr 12, 2012, 02:09 PM EDT
barneyjo: This may be news to you, but I don't post here to impress dopes like you. I haven't asked for your agreement or support, and I certainly don't want it. Offer some ideas of your own--we don't need intellectual parasites--though I suspect you'd find it hard to express an original thought.
Portia777 | Apr 12, 2012, 01:54 PM EDT
jhmdeuce. I see you like the herd mentality of belonging to one gang or another and obeying the rules of the shepherd. So much for freedom of thought then?
Portia777 | Apr 12, 2012, 01:50 PM EDT
SeamusMor | Apr 12, 2012, 01:35 PM EDT The man forgets his place. He should stop and reflect upon his proper role as a priest, and rely upon the Holy See to conduct diplomacy, set policy, promulgate doctrine,and enforce discipline. The Walmart analogy is inappropriate and incorrect. The Catholic Church is a collective of Dioceses run by Cardinals,Archbishops, and Bishops under the spiritual authority of the Pope, who are operationally independent of His Holiness, and each other." That would mean you wish him to be a robot and not use his own divine right to think for himself?
eiriamach | Apr 12, 2012, 01:48 PM EDT
That "break-away sect" that some writing below jeer at will actually comprise the majority of Irish Catholics if it breaks away. According to Amárach Research's "Contemporary Catholic Perspectives" survey, there is overwhelming support at 87% (89% of females) for priests being allowed to marry and 72% for married men becoming priests. "Over 7 in 10 (72%) favour women being ordained into the Catholic Church as priests." Fully 81% of Catholic women respondents believe that women should be ordained. The "Irish Times" just published an article on this survey, which was commissioned by ACP. But we should continue to support full freedom of speech for those who believe in unquestioning obedience to the pope's preferences on these matters and who think he's right to silence discussion. After all, they are a rapidly dwindling minority, and no institution makes progress when all its members think alike, so they should feel free to speak out!
Portia777 | Apr 12, 2012, 01:38 PM EDT
Nicolette "Fr Flannery and his friends should either conform to Church teaching, as all Catholics are called to do, or leave." Well you are the perfect brainwashed cult member doing as the old men in dresses tell you. Boy are you in for a surprise soon when all is revealed.
SeamusMor | Apr 12, 2012, 01:35 PM EDT
The man forgets his place. He should stop and reflect upon his proper role as a priest, and rely upon the Holy See to conduct diplomacy, set policy, promulgate doctrine,and enforce discipline. The Walmart analogy is inappropriate and incorrect. The Catholic Church is a collective of Dioceses run by Cardinals,Archbishops, and Bishops under the spiritual authority of the Pope, who are operationally independent of His Holiness, and each other.
barneyjo | Apr 12, 2012, 01:09 PM EDT
@GeorgeDillon - What about the "Closet Gays" that live a lie within our church presently? Or those who are in hetrosexual relationships (many long-standing) where there and who have fathered children. In the United States, In Europe, the Australias. In a neighbouring parish here in Ireland, we have a serving Parish Priest, who fathered a child out of wedlock and has remained in Ministry. Actually, the man in now a GRANDFATHER when I come to think of it. Why has no-one told this man "GET THEE TO A NUNNERY"?? I've said it elsewhere re your view of the world; I'm not convinced. You've not thought things through the way you should and thus not leave your views open to scrutiny ( and derision by some no doubt) I'm still open to pursuasion by another view of the world George, but certainly not yours in its current form; way to staid, way to predictable, and not thought provoking enough. Suggest you try again :)
joreilly | Apr 12, 2012, 12:27 PM EDT
What I see here will be another BREAK-AWAY sect within the church ??? We'll have the (1)Roman Catholics and (2) Irish Catholics ???? Too Bad ! WHY DON'T WE ALL just try to be GOOD CHRISTIANS ??/
alkil29 | Apr 12, 2012, 11:56 AM EDT
I'm not a member of the Roman Catholic church but I hope my viewpoint might be worth considering nonetheless. Whilst reform in the RCC is as much needed now as ever, it's a shame that the AOCP concentrates on issues such as female priests and celibacy. Although these issues may be important for some I would propose that there are much more serious ones. Correct me if I'm wrong but one of Vatican Two's most serious calls was for the Bible to be read in the parishes and Catholic homes on a far more widespread basis than before and this in the majority of situations is still not the case. As many sections of the Anglican church have proven, female priests and non-celibacy doesn't bring about reform in itself, they are merely issues which need or don't need addressing depending on your viewpoint and/or interpretation of Scripture of which there are many different views and just to be balanced this 'broad church' stance within Anglicanism has been shown to also be a falacy. There has to be a 'final authority' within Christ's church rather than a free for all, my problem with the RCC is that they have always considered that 'final authority' to be, with all respect, the Pope and Church government whereas it should be the Word of God interpreted by the Holy Spirit. The serious reading of God's Inspired, infallible Word is something which is necessary and as an outsider looking in, is not something which is promoted by many parishes and/or their priests to any worthwhile degree. Off course very many situations like this outside the Roman Catholic church also exist. Meanwhile many 'faithful' Roman Catholics continue to come to know the Lord through Bible studies and meetings in private homes/hotels up and down the country. This should however be encouraged by the clergy. This is the true reform that is needed - a need to discover that salvation can only come through faith in Jesus and his finished work upon the cross. God bless!
DannyBoyG | Apr 12, 2012, 11:40 AM EDT
Well Nicoletta glad to see your happy with the "Catholic Boys Club" and all it's backwards decision making. The Church may be still be around...but that is a technicality at best. The RC Church is no longer a moral voice voice for society. They have no influence any longer. And they are most certainly not a vehicle for the Gospel message in 2012 in the world. They are good protecting criminals...pointing at what is wrong with everyone else...but ignoring their own problems. So I guess they are "good" for something.
joan1954 | Apr 12, 2012, 11:36 AM EDT
Forgot to mention that women in ancient Ireland held great rights and power. They were Brehons and teachers among others and the early Christian church in Ireland recognized their contributions and were attempting to bring their learning into an Irish version of Christianity.
Nicoletta | Apr 12, 2012, 11:34 AM EDT
Fr Flannery and his friends should either conform to Church teaching, as all Catholics are called to do, or leave. I'm sure the Church of Ireland would welcome them. Failing that, there have been over 38,000 Protestant denominations founded since the Reformation. If they can't find one that exactly matches their criteria they can always invent their own church.
joan1954 | Apr 12, 2012, 11:33 AM EDT
I find most of what has been written to be sad and amusing at the same time and in a way I agree with Murph46. At the beginning of Ireland's Christian era, they preached a faith different from that of Rome in that its approach was Celtic and respected women's rights. Ultimately the Irish church was chastised and brought into alignment with Rome to its detriment.
RichardP | Apr 12, 2012, 11:20 AM EDT
A lot of self-righteous types saying 'Shut up' "Do as your told or become a protestant" and other garbage. All Protestant/Reform movement sprang from the refusal or inability of power-brokers within the Catholic Church to recognize and correct fundamental flaws - whether doctrinal or other; Hence the terms Protestant or Reformationist. To suggest that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is omniscient is ridiculous, but it also means there can never be any change, since they already know everything. Perhaps another Protest movement will lead to another split/schism but perhaps a change in the antiquated methods of governance within the RCC might prevent or limit that damage - there is no evidence of such a possibility. Between scandals, cover-ups and head-in-sand running of the organization the RCC is on a slide from which it cannot recover, in Ireland, unless radical action is undertaken
GeorgeDillon | Apr 12, 2012, 11:14 AM EDT
If these guys want homosexual marriage, women priests etc. that's their prerogative. But why don't they just join the Anglicans, and leave us Catholics alone? Why don't they go obsess about someone else for a change? Mormons, Muslims, Moravians--there's a long list !
eiriamach | Apr 12, 2012, 10:52 AM EDT
pilib04 thinks "it's time for a Vatican Council." Yes, but look-- the Church hardly began to carry out the reforms given at Second Vatican Council before popes began back-peddling and writing canon law that reverses important Vatican II reforms. The sexual abuse cases could not have become so numerous or so recent if the Vatican II changes had been carried out. The temple police who post on IC reject the Vatican II agenda, and they don't mind saying so. What good would another reform Council do when the Vatican is determined to "reform the reform" and call it "continuity"?
biggles008 | Apr 12, 2012, 10:49 AM EDT
Rome think they know it all. They don't.
Murph46 | Apr 12, 2012, 10:39 AM EDT
FREE FR. FLANNERY!
pilib04 | Apr 12, 2012, 10:38 AM EDT
hermitTalker, refers to wondering eyes of priests! My brother, we are not talking about wondering eyes. We are talking about RAPE and the COVERUP of RAPE!!! Are you suggesting that Rapists should be protected (as our Church has)?
pilib04 | Apr 12, 2012, 10:35 AM EDT
The Church couldn't find a Cardinal who was not involved in rapist protection to handle Father Flannery? Really! Not one Cardinal who is clean? And our Pontiff allows his minions to suggest that the good Father Flannery is the problem? It's time for a Vatican Council. These rapists and protectors of rapists need to be excommunicated. Free speech is not the problem, Rape is the problem. The "cardinal" who sent Father Flannery away is the very same "cardinal" who as bishop of San Francisco and later as Bishop of Portland hid the rapist priests!!!
hermitTalker | Apr 12, 2012, 10:27 AM EDT
The aqnalogy with WM's HQ being akin to the Bishop of Rome and the clergy in Ireland or even its bishops being "branch managers" is irrationally ludicrous. Get any W-M manager or US high army officer contradict a lunatic policy in Afghanistan and see what Bush and Obama handled that dissent! Fr Flannery and Fr McDonagh and any of the ACP who think that women priests is a negotiable dogma do not know their history. That is borne out by the fact that Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene, and gave her a message for "my brothers" and spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well, got the adulterous women's accusers to slink away- violations of Jewish custom and culture. If He wanted women as priests, He was free to do so, given that He railed at the gates of His critics' many objections to His message, As to celibacy, that is open for discussion, but legalised intercourse does not prevent wandering eyes. Anglicans and others are still short of female and married clergy, explain that ACP? Birth control without barriers and chemicals builds a couple's sacrificial love. That is quite a but safer if practiced scientifically and lovingly even by illiterate women in Africa! But, asking for discipline and listening to our past Wisdom is not exactly the "in" prayerful attitude today.
eiriamach | Apr 12, 2012, 10:25 AM EDT
Americans should join in solidarity with the uprising! It would send a clear message to the Americans bishops. American bishops are silent about the Vatican's stripping Fr. Flannery's freedom of speech. But in outrageous hypocrisy, the USCCB is calling for a "Fortnight for Freedom" ending July 4 (Independence Day). Their plan is for American Catholics to participate in protesting what the bishops see as Obama and some states ignoring Catholic religious liberty. One rule under the new federal health care law requires Catholic hospitals, schools, and agencies to provide insurance covering women workers' contraceptive care (NOT abortion as some ignorantly claim). For Catholic organizations, the insurance companies would pay for the contraceptives. The bishops object that it violates their religious doctrine. In another of their imagined offenses against religious liberty, they say "Several states have denied financing to Catholic agencies that refused to place foster children with gay parents" (NY Times 4/12). And they lost a federal grant for working with victims of sex trafficking because they refuse to refer the victims to agencies that provide birth control or abortion. Can any thinking person support an organization that approves of stripping dissenters' freedom of speech while whining that anti-discriminatory laws offend religious freedom?
bunkerisland | Apr 12, 2012, 10:17 AM EDT
The Vatican has a disconnect with the majority of its membership throughout the world. At what point are the rules repressive and harmful to the organization? Wake up! Reform is as essential as it was in the times of Martin Luther. It is accept dissent or dissolve.
FatherVol | Apr 12, 2012, 10:15 AM EDT
Fr. Flannery was ordained to teach and preach what the Catholic Church believes and teaches teaches. Those in authority has the obligation to correct him and chastise him for the sake of the Faithful. BTW, isn't spring when all the weeds start to show their ugly heads? I know I just spent hours yesterday plucking them from my flower beds by hand.
jhmdeuce | Apr 12, 2012, 10:09 AM EDT
If you are going to be a member of a club: 1) Make meetings 2) Pay dues 3) Follow the rules If you cannot manage to do the three simple things the solution is simple: JOIN ANOTHER CLUB! Fr. Flannery and his pals can either remember and live up to the vow of OBEDIENCE they pledged, before the Almighty, or go find another club. Maybe the Church of Ireland needs a few more malcontents.
mayoman | Apr 12, 2012, 09:59 AM EDT
Its very encouraging that the present dissent is originating from within the Catholic clergy. Father Flannery and the Redemptionists are intellectually rigorous in their analysis and criticism, and thus their dissent carries the weight of reason and truth. The Vatican needs to listen to the many thoughtful men and women in the Church, not silence them.
Sophium | Apr 12, 2012, 09:54 AM EDT
I have news for Brendan Butler of "We Are Church Ireland." Buddy, you are not the Church. You are a bunch of arrogant rebels, which the Church has seen for 2,000 years. Yawn...sorry, I yawned. Mr. Butler, you bore me. "Catholic Spring" is just one more narcissistic idea by those who want to seize power. Do you high-minded intellectuals recall The Altar of Reason? Well? That was what the French Revolutionists put on the Altar of Christ at Notre Dame Cathedral after they slaughtered the priests. Does that arrogant little sign still exist at Notre Dame? No, because there has been a true Catholic Spring springing up in the hearts of young people of France, who are putting the rebels to shame. It will be the same for the arrogant in Ireland. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. And Mother Church will continue to stand long after this little Irish temper tantrum.
ripley838 | Apr 12, 2012, 09:54 AM EDT
Has Benedict said "Will no one relieve me of this tubulent priest?"
GraydonWilson | Apr 12, 2012, 09:47 AM EDT
The Church is just a club.