55 Comments

• 2BorNot2B | Apr 11, 2011, 02:32 PM EDT

  @joan1954 -- Bravo, finally someone who knows something about Cath history. Whichever side of the Cath spectrum you hail from, at least you speak with knowledge, while the overwhelming majority here is either hopelessly ignorant, or pretends to judge 13th C mores and political intrigue by 21st C standards. Laughable! -- @culchiewoman and AngelPrecious: In the grand scheme of things this constant attempt by IC at putting the sins of some in the Church in high relief so the sweaty masses can throw mud and cast aspersions against it (the real objective is to bring in eyes to the website as a marketing ploy) is compared to the annoyance of a gnat. The heavy artillery comes from the NYT, Time and Newsweek RAGazines every time Christianity is set to celebrate a holiday. -- The cowards, however, would not dare to bring upon themselves the wrath of the ragheaded troglodytes who prowl the world with bombs in their underwear! How smart is that?

• 2BorNot2B | Apr 11, 2011, 02:16 PM EDT

  @mamaginnty -- You know, you don't have to speculate or make insidious accusations about "they change it to suit themselves..." The CC does not have to hide its past, after all despite its divine origin its made up of humans, and if you can point to a PERFECT institution, why don't you give us the name so we can swear our allegiance to it ASAP. So, go see historical truth for yourself. Not only is there a myriad of Cath websites, some of which I mentioned before, where you can find the unadulterated truth, but there are many as well hosted by EX-prot scholars, preachers and pastors (Dave Armstrong, Scott Hahn, Jim Akins, Steven Ray, Jeff Cavins, Marcus Grodi, etc.)who after trying to 'debunk and destroy' the CC through meticulous research, much to their chagrin ended up as Catholics. Instead of rattling off H'wood-made claptrap I'd suggest you take a good look at the bible, especially the parable of the wheat and the tares, the separation of goats and sheep and the words that prophesy the falling away of many in the end times: "..only those who persevere will be saved.." and make sure you don't end up with the wrong crowd of complainers, detractors and harsh judges of the speck in their brother's eye. Unless, of course you feel entitled to cast the first stone.

• 2BorNot2B | Apr 11, 2011, 01:46 PM EDT

  @Rebelforce -- Does it by chance seem to you that you express your biases out both sides of your mouth, or is the 'god' you believe in a doddering old fool sitting somewhere on a dust cloud. The reason I ask is because, a) the Christian God whose Church Donohue has a PERFECT RIGHT to defend CLEARLY does not approve of homosexuality. That's specified in both the Old and New Testament (a book the CC gave to the world, btw!). And - b) Prayer is a sort of 'incense' that rises to God's ear from the righteous. Would then, the prayer of those who believe in homosexuality and therefore discard the word of God as it is written have any force or validity? Think about it. -- @CitizenWhy -- Both your comments testify to a borderline intellect (at least you can type), and a marginal (if that), sense of humor. Try harder, you might yet manage to get the 'self-satisfied smirk' from Cathy Hayes, the woman who makes a living out of putting out the trash at IC so anti-Cath bigots like you can swoop in like vultures to feast on it.

• 2BorNot2B | Apr 11, 2011, 12:58 PM EDT

  @Clancey -- I'm sure if you had tried harder you could have come up with a few more clichés and hackneyed phrases. Next time...tell us how you really feel, and then see if those who truly care about Catholicism give a rat's a**! -- @deenaww -- Which is it, the Cath League is 3 people in a basement, or as brondell claims, its spokesman is worth 400K which the org. your describe could not support? - The problem with rabid opinionated detractors is that they can blather on yet remain incapable of verifying facts. -- @suivness10 - No, the Borgias were Spaniards. There's a Catholic Encyclopedia online that will give you true facts, not fantasies and sensationalism as dreamed up by atheist writers and celebridiot H'wood profiteers.

• 2BorNot2B | Apr 11, 2011, 12:45 PM EDT

  Questions to Irishphotograph: If in your personal opinion, Catholicism is a joke is protestantism the punch-line? -- If the 'drumbeating every 30 min. bothers you... maybe you have too much free time to focus; get off the dole and find a job. -- There's over 1 billion Caths (how many in your sect? 25?), and yes there are a few CINO's out there, but why don't you try 'discussing Jesus' with one of at least 500 million who might give you a run for your proddy money. --Maybe you should try Catholic Answers.com, New Advent, or EWTN, you might be surprised at the level of knowledge. -- Or is your problem that the questions you ask are not answered with an apostate prot slant? -- The rant re: Ireland smells of pure jealousy, Christian/Catholicism got to Ireland in the 8th C, unfortunately protestantism did not invent itself until the 15th...live with it! -- Finally, looks like you want arguments not reasoned debate. Many here could on any given day satisfy your queries though perhaps not get past your judgmentalism, but go ahead and try us, why don't you? -- @rugbyplayer: Don’t be lazy, prove your point, otherwise you are only ranting

• Mick10000 | Apr 09, 2011, 10:57 PM EDT

  On closer proofing: Where are Wikileaks when we need them?

• Mick10000 | Apr 09, 2011, 10:50 PM EDT

  Jacersagain, You are correct! The Vatican has the real documents locked in its library vaults so it can "reveal" its official version to the public, unchallenged by the recorded truth. It really is too bad that there is no Freedom of Information Act for the Vatican Archives. Where is Wikileaks when we need them?

• southcountykelly | Apr 04, 2011, 11:46 AM EDT

  here's a walk down memory lane...when I grew up, the movie, 'Gone with the Wind,' was condemned by the "New World' newspaper. Well, my family, gratefully never bought it, and I guess my girlfriend's family forgot to read it... so two fifth graders in the 60's got to see one of the best movies ever!

• southcountykelly | Apr 04, 2011, 11:31 AM EDT

  I ask, "Would Macy's be committing a mortal or venial sin?

• seanomelbourne | Apr 03, 2011, 07:02 PM EDT

  The Borgia popes were whores and drunk with power.Mick10000 is correct with his assessment of the Vatican manipulating history.The Vatican Library also contains documents pertaining to the excesses of the RC.Documents of rape,pillage,murder and deceit.Jacer would prefer to live in the ignorance that the church teaches,he feels safe there.

• jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 03:44 PM EDT

  pilib04 - Our very own Catholic Church knows and admits there were bad people in the chair of St. Peter. It doesn't mean their business of delivering Christ's pure message through the chair of St. Peter's were bad. Even the Borgia family's Popes did deliver on the good of St. Peter, despite their ignominous family's objectives.

• bigbanggleek | Apr 03, 2011, 03:11 PM EDT

  I understand that this is a true story, and I accept that. I would say that most Catholics know that the Church is far from perfect. I just don't understand why Showtime would choose Lent as the time of year to air the show.

• jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 12:30 PM EDT

  @ Mick10000 - the last sentence in yr post is rubbish. The Vatican has enough historical documents in its Libraries to reveal its history of delivering Truth. You should know that, even as a un-eminent professor of history.

• Mick10000 | Apr 03, 2011, 03:37 AM EDT

  As a professor of history and a former seminarian, I caution those of you who feel outrage at this series, to realize that the events, though dramatized, are real. The church has a habit of altering history to suit its needs.

• pilib04 | Apr 02, 2011, 10:52 PM EDT

  I forgot to mention that Neil Jordan is one hell of a director.

• pilib04 | Apr 02, 2011, 10:48 PM EDT

  jacersagain says "The Catholic Church has had bad popes and it readily admits so. WHO admits so??? I have never heard our Church admit to "bad popes?" Furthermore, the current Church does not even admit to "bad priests." Finally I don't need some rich Catholic telling me what and who to watch. Donohue is a racist bigot and will never earn my support. I am a Catholic but do not acknowledge any churchperson who hides child molesters from the Holy Father on down!!!

• seanomelbourne | Apr 02, 2011, 07:11 PM EDT

  The truth may hurt the Catholic league/opus dei,Jordan did not create the Borgia's the church did. The right seem to dislike the truth that hurts.

• jacersagain | Apr 02, 2011, 06:50 PM EDT

  mamaginnty – forgive me if I say that’s a hugely disproportionate statement you’ve made in yr last post (I can ‘sort-of’ understand you, you’ve admitted n Irish Central that you’re an angry old dear in Ireland). There were very few priests in Ireland who committed the evil of child abuse, even though thousands were their victims. In fact, yours is exactly the kind of statement that recent Popes – John XXII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI – have all spoken of and warned against, being led by secular forces like many of the media people in Ireland, of which the Irish Times is the best example of the worst kind. True atheists hate the Catholic Church because they can’t beat it. I can’t comment on the questions on new Census form yet;I haven’t received mine so far. @ conorsmom... Right on!

• conorsmom | Apr 02, 2011, 11:20 AM EDT

  Ok, the Church needs to put on their big boy pants and understand that this is not a new story. The Borgias story is well known. Maybe the Catholic church would serve not only themselves better but us as well if they started an open policy of saying "yes we know all of this" and move on, instead of trying to hide it. The only people who seem to have problems with this are the same people who walk around with their head in the sand regarding the Churches other "problems"... Wake up people. This is not what Jesus was talking about...

• mamaginnty | Apr 02, 2011, 10:47 AM EDT

  You might as well class half the irish as new born atheists, our census forms are out now, one of the questions asked is " What religion are you " quite a lot of people will be stating " no religion " as they have given up going to church, especially confession. etc. Some of us elders have had long talks about this, in our teens we went to confession terrified to tell if a boy kissed you. The priest would roar and shame us. Years later we find out that same priest, as in every other village, had been molesting our friends. Religion....you can keep it, I will believe and pray to my own God.

• mcbreen | Apr 02, 2011, 10:27 AM EDT

  If we exposed an international Jewish or Muslim conspiracy' with this kind of evidence, we would be rightly and soundly criticized for the lack of scholorship in our observations of these two groups. Now you know how Catholics feel.

• jacersagain | Apr 02, 2011, 07:24 AM EDT

  I don’t think anyone is attacking atheists for being atheists. The truth is that it is atheists that attack all religions and religionists are entitled to defend their faiths against those attacks. It just so happens that atheists attack the Roman Catholic Church most because it is the 'biggie'.

• jacersagain | Apr 02, 2011, 07:23 AM EDT

  The Catholic Church has had bad popes and it readily admits so. The Borgia episodes are but some of a few. No harm telling the story (it was done on Britain’s BBC TV some years ago, during Neil Jordan’s young adult years – so he may have been influenced by the BBC version in choosing to make this new movie) but one hopes it sticks to the truth of history and shows up the Borgia family for what they were – a selfish, corrupt and power-mad family. I’ve heard that some recently discovered documents of Pope Alexander VI, widely believed to have been the worst Pope of all time, show him in a much more favourable light and that he may have been a good pope after all, whatever about his Borgia family affairs. I wonder will Jordan’s film show that up - or will Jordan use this movie to propound his atheistic views of the Catholic Church? "Bad apples in the barrell - therefore all the apples are bad".

• citizen69 | Apr 02, 2011, 04:44 AM EDT

  Why attack some-one for being an atheist? When you see the intolerance and hatred of religion in the last few days with the burning of a koran in America and the murderous protests to that event in Afghanistan it just goes to show how inhuman religious types can be!

• bonbon1 | Apr 02, 2011, 01:09 AM EDT

  When I was young the best thing that could happen to an author was to have their book banned in Boston by the Catholic church. The book instantly became a best seller. I don't think Catholics who get overly concerned about the terrible crimes commited by the church when they are exposed should try so hard to sweep everything under the carpet.After all, this has gone on for two thousand years and no one seems to care. Perhaps Jesus is using this as a message that we need to improve.Anyway, we're not supposed to kill the mesenger

• Pittsburghkid | Apr 01, 2011, 10:43 PM EDT

  The attacks on the Catholic Church are based on it stand on Abortion. Catholic Priests did not invent pedaphile behavor, and pedihile are not exclusively Catholic Priest. Pediphile pop up in Protestant Church, Jewish Synagoges. The Courts extended the statute of limitations to make the problem appear larger then it is. If the Church would have dropped it position on Abortion, then the trails would never have happened. But good News, the Tea Party is pro-life. We've already control many states like Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Indiana. Also the Congress of the USA, is largely Tea Party. Constitutional Admendments are being discuss to save the innocent unborn babies.

• killianyacht | Apr 01, 2011, 06:25 PM EDT

  Bill Donahoe is vitriolic, and utterly finatical to the point of questionable sanity. That said I do not condone the personal attacks made by people on here with their own somewhat finatical agendas. It seems however that Mr. Donahoe has a fairy tale view of the Church and he somehow believes and expects all of us to simply take it on "Faith" that the Church of Rome has ever and always been this vestige of saintliness and sacred "infallibility". When it's clear to any thinking person supported by the historical facts that the Church has both benefitted and indeed succombed to the extremes of human nature. The Borgias and many (certainly not all) of their deeds are well documented. The Catholic League in their zeal to defend the Church has once again blatantly discredited themselves or perhaps allowed the defenders of the Church to appear foolish and made the Church to look both hypocritical and deceptive in this denial of the Borgias and this dark period in the Church's history. To all the Catholics that take personal offense I say remember the words, the actual Gospel of Christ, "The Kingdom of God is within" and look no further for the True Church of Christ. Amen.

• jamieLM | Apr 01, 2011, 05:03 PM EDT

  It's a show. If one show will cause anyone's faith to melt-down, better not tune in. Millions of books have been written, questioning certain tenets and traditions of Christian doctrine that have NO historical, scientific, and/or scriptual basis. Are we going to boycott Barnes & Noble, Borders, and all the other bookstores and libraries for putting these books on their shelves? Faith, history, and science don't always agree. "The Borgias" is being presented by SHOWTIME who can deviate from historical accuracy, like "The Tudors" did. I'll being watching it and I'm not boycotting Macy's, either. Btw: Well said, feliciamasey and Deidra47.

• GeorgeDillon | Apr 01, 2011, 04:23 PM EDT

  When are we going to have a series about the countless Catholics, both lay and cleric, whom the English Church tortured and murdered (burnt to death, hanged, castrated etc. etc.) in Ireland thru the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries?

• Deidra47 | Apr 01, 2011, 04:03 PM EDT

  If it is a part of history, let it be told. History will always have the good and the bad and to try and change the bad to good or to sweep it under the rug is stupid. I get tired of the revisionist who wants to change history so their particular religion/cause.....whatever, is seen in a better light.

• bootsjoyce4 | Apr 01, 2011, 02:45 PM EDT

  Nothing new here. Catholic bashing HAS been in fashion especially in NYC. Hello NY Times.

• feliciamaisey | Apr 01, 2011, 01:30 PM EDT

  There is absolutely nothing like the truth and all the posters here for whom Catholicism means sweeping history under a rug,or boycotting a store that carries good merchandise because it utilized its window to promote a program, are the prime reason why more Catholics do not want to be part of the Catholic machine any more. The program will be interesting to watch as it is concentrated on a family and their ambitions, which happen to pit them again each other as much as society. Ironically, this is still happening within the Church, given the atrocities that have been committed in the name of God, but which are not God-like--pedophile priests for one thing....In order to accept one's religion in its entirety, one needs to accept both the good and bad aspects of its creation and ask the hard questions to make a determination if the organization of said religion is truly what they want to believe in. Let's face it, the organization of Catholicism has much to offer and much to fear as a whole truth, and if one constantly jumps in and says "oh no, we can't talk about that or look at that" because it is an offense to the Church," then there is some very real acts of denial going on and my question is: for what purpose does this serve?

• GeorgeDillon | Apr 01, 2011, 01:13 PM EDT

  It's fascinating to see how posters who condemn Mr Donahue for (allegedly) being anti-homosexual, are the first to attack Mr Donahue for being "overweight"! What bigoted fools.

• GeorgeDillon | Apr 01, 2011, 01:12 PM EDT

  The poster SVMalcolm attacks Mr Donahue because he is (in that poster's opinion) "overweight". SVMalcolm, you're a stupid bigot. What an idiot. You mean people who are "overweight" don't get to have free speech? And what weight are you, you useless bag of lard?

• AngelPrecious | Apr 01, 2011, 01:04 PM EDT

  Actually, more Americans than you think pay attention to what Bill Donahue is saying. I will no longer shop at Macy's. Kinda sad because I liked to shop there. Culchiewoman, I certainly have NO desire to watch something like this, especially around Easter!

• SCVMal | Apr 01, 2011, 01:04 PM EDT

  Oh c'mon! Come down from Mars! The "influential" Catholic League is the overweight, over-Victorian individual, Bill Donohue who unfortunately doesn't have a life!

• Cmullaney | Apr 01, 2011, 12:57 PM EDT

  The "influential" Catholic League? Are you kidding?

• Celtica43 | Apr 01, 2011, 12:54 PM EDT

  Oh, PLEASE......

• culchiewoman | Apr 01, 2011, 12:38 PM EDT

  So the one-man-band that is the Catholic League decries yet another piece of enterntainment? What, have they still not gotten the memo? Every time they condemn a film or series ('The Magdalene Sisters', anyone?), more people go to see it or tune in. I'm glued to the Borgias and will remain so for the season...particularly because the CL tells me not to watch it.

• joan1954 | Apr 01, 2011, 12:03 PM EDT

  Frankly, irregardless of how we feel, it would be best to ignore the Borgias. Historically the Borgias were at the forefront of the High Renasance and it was this family who gave the world magnificent staues. I know church history but most people forget that the papacy once fulfilled two functions of both Church and State and through the State aspect saw much intrique. It only changed when Victor Emmanuel unified Italy in the 1870's and the then pope locked himself in the Vatican. Heady stuff!!!

• mamaginnty | Apr 01, 2011, 12:00 PM EDT

  This is part history and true story, worse than this was going on, then they change it to suit themselves whenever. The protestant religion was born from this type of carryon, if it was an untruth then Donohue maybe had the right to protest. The truth always hurts a bigot. People are not blaming God, if you believe in him. We have seen so many films here in Ireland and cried, about the Magdalene sister, Christian Brothers etc. The centuries they have ruled and it still goes on, but it does not turn us against The Lord but against his so called saintly followers, who have brainwashed us since childhood, and abused us in childhood. We need a clean sweep not just in Ireland...worldwide, and maybe sweep the likes of Donohue out with the rest of the filth that rule over our beautiful churches.

• CitizenWhy | Apr 01, 2011, 11:29 AM EDT

  Terrible defamation. Th Borgias were models of virtue, good Catholics all.

• CitizenWhy | Apr 01, 2011, 11:28 AM EDT

  The catholic League is a one-man self appointed substitute for the bishops and the pope.

• floridafinn | Apr 01, 2011, 11:23 AM EDT

  Take it easy. This is historical reference. No one seems to be bashing anyone at Macy's. It's a commercial tie-in. What ever happened to the wild abandon of "free trade"? As for Jordan, if that's his perspective, let him have it. He is not alone. Don't go see the movie or view anything on You Tube or a website to be counted as a 'hit.'

• Rebelforce | Apr 01, 2011, 11:04 AM EDT

  It's ironic that a guy dedicated to fighting anti-Catholic bigotry in America is probably among the most notorious homophobic bigots in America. The sad part is, Bill probably can't even recognize this irony. Pray for him.

• Suivness10 | Apr 01, 2011, 10:33 AM EDT

  Weren't the Borgias Italian? Won't comment on the rest because I might get stoned (and I don't mean in the drug sense of the term).

• deenaww | Apr 01, 2011, 10:16 AM EDT

  The Catholic league is a joke. It's like three elderly people in a basement. Donahue is nothing but a bully. Maybe he should stop trying to censor movies and put his focus on ridding the real evil ruining the church... pedophile priest.

• brondell | Apr 01, 2011, 10:04 AM EDT

  I tend to agree with those who have posted responses to your news. But I also think that Bill Donahue, the $400,000.00 per annum gadfly and very unofficial "defender of the faith", has done more damage to the public's opinion of Mother Church than Neil Jordan has done or even wished to do. As long as avarice rules the world (and Donahue), Macy's will do its best to reach into our pockets and maximize their profits at the expense of principle. Come to think of it, that is precisely what the Popes have said about our devotion to unbridled "free enterprise."

• Clancey | Apr 01, 2011, 10:03 AM EDT

  The "influential" Catholic League? Get serious!!! One loudmouth, paranoid,right-wing guy (William Donohue) who somehow manages to be quoted all over the place, defending a corrupt, morally bankrupt, authoritarian institution that has suppressed creative thought and human independence for centuries. The guy is a legend in his own mind.

• ripley838 | Apr 01, 2011, 09:57 AM EDT

  The Catholic League influential? It's just one man, Bill Donohue, with an outsized ego and a laptop.

• rugbyplayer | Apr 01, 2011, 09:54 AM EDT

  Sorry, but the biggest bigot of all is Bill Donohue and his antediluvian Catholic League.

• Irishphotograph | Apr 01, 2011, 09:48 AM EDT

  Roman Catholicism is a joke!...it has put a veil over Ireland and beats the same old tired drum week in week out for 30 or so minuites...Catholics havent a clue about the Christian Faith that its embarrassing to discuss Jesus with them...not their fault but the fault of the Roman church that fails to teach Christianity...GET OUT OF IRELAND ROME!..YOU CORRUPT MY COUNTRY WITH MAN MADE TRADITIONS & HAVE TURNED IRELAND AGAINST THE LORD OUR GOD!..You only believe in the concept of God not in God Himself.

• Nicoletta | Apr 01, 2011, 09:47 AM EDT

  Good for the Catholic League! Don't think Marshall Field's (sadly now Macy's) in Chicago has been defaced as I was in there on Wednesday and only noticed the beautiful spring floral display.

• borefield | Apr 01, 2011, 09:16 AM EDT

  It's just another classical example of dissing the Catholic Church. Imagine putting Mohamed in their window in a disrespctful way, Macy's would probably burn to the ground. I have a Macy's charge card which I will now promptly cancel, pending the outcome.

• GeorgeDillon | Apr 01, 2011, 08:54 AM EDT

  I agree with this complaint. You wouldn't see Macys bankrolling attacks on the Jewish faith or people!