28 Comments

• jmccarten | Nov 24, 2011, 10:26 AM EST

  Seagreen thanks for your comment. As an historian I view America and it's role in the world from a very macro perspective, what is the big picture over a long period of time. Sure errors are made along the way, but in the long run over time America has been a great force for good in the world. I will give you just one example: of this macro approach to American geopolitical history. Beginning in 1945 and until the fall of Communism in Europe in 1990. America, for 45 years kept up to 300,000 troops in Europe to defend it from a Russian invasion. Millions of Americans served in Europe, untold billions were spent on NATO. The result is the fall of communism and freedom for people throughout Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Republics. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way but helping win WWII and the Cold War in Europe makes up for a few fobiles here and there. Let's face the simple fact if anyone ever laid a hand on Ireland the 42 million members of the Irish diaspora in America would demand immediate intervention. So Ireland does exist under the American security umbrella. It a very nice umbrella you know, America has the capability to land a force of over 100,000 men, over 240 tanks and 100 advanced aircraft in most countries of the world in two weeks. Ireland is a lot closer so maybe five days tops. All America asks in return is a little loyalty and not so much criticism.

• seagreen | Nov 24, 2011, 08:48 AM EST

  Without doubt the US has contributed largely to Ireland over the years, but these contributions are not to be confused with some of Americas action around the world. In Vietnam, I heard we were there to stop the "Domino Theory" and keep communism from consuming SE Asia. This was supposed to be a threat to some guy driving a backhoe in Wisconsin? really ! When the US jumped into bed with the Diem regime during the Vietnamese civil war, one of the reasons was to procure oil drilling rights off the coast of Vung Tau and Nha Trang. Oil is being produced there now, but not by those that were designated to do so if all went went well. (no pun intended) My brainwashing against socialisn began in the second grade. A communist or a socialist was supposedly worse than a murderer or rapist, but a capitalist was all that is good and wholesome. We have given ourselves a pat on the back in America whenever it is beneficial to do so. Have we done lots of good in this world. You bet we have, but we have also extorted and used other countries solely for the benefit of a few (proportunstely) We have no right to compromise Ireland's soverignty at Shannon, because we gave grain to Bangladesh. Because you or I have spent time in The US military, it does not entitle us to a season's pass to other nations policy's and agenda. Two men were in Vietnam. One is called a hippie, that other is good and patriotic. My feeling is that the former learned a few things, and would not like to see history repeart itself, at least in the world that he lives in.

• gobdawpaddy | Nov 24, 2011, 07:03 AM EST

  Agree with Mr McCartan regarding the lack of gratitude and joycean, who makes observations regarding anti-American sentiment in Ireland (not sure it is rampant, but there is a lot of it). In the very unlikely event that Ireland is attacked at some point, or a more plausible scenario involving a catastrophic natural or man made disaster, the first country in with assistance would be the British, followed quickly by the United States. Would such assistance be rejected? The United States has contributed a lot to Ireland over the years and not withstanding it's 'neutrality', use of the airport is the least it can offer in return. Shannon is of course being remunerated handsomely for landing rights. To read a jibe from Ireland regarding the World Trade Center tragedy on Thanksgiving morning is hurtful, especially considering the number of Irish Americans who lost their lives, many of their loved ones visitors to Irish Central.

• sirpeter | Nov 23, 2011, 10:41 PM EST

  jmccarten.Yeah that was a real good unbrella of American strength when the twin towers came tumbling down.Ye haven't a clue.Let me educate you."Patriot Act"Read it!!America is just the USSR at the other side of the Atlantic.Ye are all potential terrorists to the American government.Uncle Sam says It could be YOU!!

• jmccarten | Nov 23, 2011, 01:07 PM EST

  Since 1941 America has defended democracy all over the world, defeated communism,maintained world peace through a policy of "peace through strength" and has spent untold billions of dollars and thousands of lives making the world a better and safer place. And Ireland benefits from this in untold ways. All America asks for is some landing rights at an airport and these people protest. Such ingratitude. It appears Gerry Condon a former hippie from the Vietnam era did not get the memo that 9/11 occurred and we are engaged in a worldwide war on terrorism. The least Ireland can do is let American troops use it's airport. I served in Vietnam with the likes of Mr. Condon, they were a small vocal minority then and they are even smaller now (20 people). Irish Neutrality exists under an unbrella of American strength just like the rest of Europe and most of the world does. The least you can do is not insult our troops as they travel to distant lands to protect your country and freedom.

• joycean | Nov 23, 2011, 09:51 AM EST

  Irish neutrality? For people like Shannonwatch, neutrality seems to mean spewing Anti=American hatred, which seems rampant in Ireland. My husband is a retired US Army officer and Vietnam veteran. I have flown on many transAtlantic US mitilary flights. None ever stopped in Shannon or carried prisoners. In addition to solders,the planes carry soldiers' families - wives, children, babies. Soldiers are young and so are their families. These families may be living in Europe or they may be visiting their loved ones in the service. The planes also carry elderly retirees and sometimes severely wounded soldiers who are returning to the US for hospitalization, and they carry the remains of our war dead.

• IrelandNorth | Nov 23, 2011, 08:33 AM EST

  I'm glad to see that American Veterans for Peace have more moral fibre in their little fingers than successive craven Irish governments have in their respective bodies. Their defence was that non co-operation with Republican Party war mongering would spook American multinational corps. "Sovereignty For Sale - Bargain Basement Prices."

• gobdawpaddy | Nov 22, 2011, 07:53 PM EST

  Can you imagine if Adolf and Goebells had toured Ireland in the 40's, coming across peters ancestors? Goebells, fire up ze ovens, deez pepil R too stupid to be part of master race.

• gobdawpaddy | Nov 22, 2011, 03:54 PM EST

  No Peter, Ireland's neutrality is a joke because Paddy is neutral until they can make a few USD out of it. In other jurisdictions people who sell themselves for cash have a name. Now go back to the corner you silly little inbred.

• sirpeter | Nov 22, 2011, 01:06 PM EST

  That's right Gobshite giving troops a few trays of sandwiches and a few cups of tea makes Irelands neutrality invalid.It's so easy to say no to Uncle Sam when his boys are just passing through.If I remember rightly it was the veiled threat " You are either with us or against us" might of had a little something to do with allowing US troops land in the first place.It's not easy defying Uncle Sam when he's in a bad mood is it?Personally I would have told Uncle Sam to get stuffed.But then you would have given your why bother going to visit Ireland crap.They don't love us.Are you Georgies Boys brother?

• gobdawpaddy | Nov 21, 2011, 10:59 PM EST

  Allentown, I heard the same story. I believe it was at the West County Hotel. I witnessed something similar in I think July at a different location when the troops were offered trays of sandwiches during 'the afters'. Ireland's neutrality is a joke as it was ignored as soon as there was a few USD involved. Actually 'a few' is an understatement.

• peterson | Nov 21, 2011, 08:54 PM EST

  These complainers should find another cause -- They don't really make sense !!

• allentown | Nov 21, 2011, 06:40 PM EST

  Is the glass half full or half empty? I heard a very nice story of American troops stopping at Shannon when their flight was delayed a day. Some were billeted in a local hotel that was having a wedding reception. Upon learning that American troops were staying at the hotel, the bridal couple invited the troops to join them in their celebration.

• joycean | Nov 21, 2011, 06:19 PM EST

  Rendition simply means transporting prisoners to a country that has juridiction over them, usually thiers. In 2009, the Obama adminstration annouced it would continue the practice, but monitor to see that the prisoner is not tortured. There is no reason to believe that aircraft carrying soldiers or military aircraft are being used for that purpose. In fact, a C172 is so large it would be a waste of money to use for that purpose. A C17 is larger than a commercial plane carrying a full load of hundreds of passengers. Today, we have a much better intel system then we had originally in the current wars, and drones are being used more frquently with few prisoners being taken. In addition, all US forces will be out of Iraq by January. As someone who lived through Vietnam and the current wars, I remember the general unpopularity of the Vietnam was in the US, while the current wars are views with approval. Ireland is free to choose its friends and enemies, but the US needs to be careful not to confuse its relationship with Ireland. I think the planes going through Shannon are a goodwill gesture, much like refueling the Cole was in Yemen which cost a number of US casualties and serious damage to the war ship. If it were up to me, I would end all flights through Ireland. I don't believe a "neutral" country is a friendly country, but the fact is that both governments have agreed to continue the practice. This was one of Obama and Kenney's talking points.

• CaptainCon | Nov 21, 2011, 05:46 PM EST

  No argument left then except an ad hominem attack on another poster. In other words, no argument at all.

• Wayne460 | Nov 21, 2011, 05:40 PM EST

  Obviously CaptainCon, you are a drama student.

• CaptainCon | Nov 21, 2011, 04:04 PM EST

  So basically your argument irishcoffeekid is that we shou;d shut up about rendition flight in return for the money US soldiers in transit bring in. Why don't we just sell access to Shannon and Irish deepwater ports to Russia or China then? What's the difference between the Chinese or Russian regime and the American? We were always told that the United States was about such things and principles, truth and justice and it turns out its being paid to look the other way on rendition flights to torture camps hidden abroad.

• irishcoffeekid | Nov 21, 2011, 03:34 PM EST

  I flew out of Shannon on Sunday morning back to my home town in DC. I regularly meet US soldiers at Shannon airport when I'm travelling back and forth and have to say they are probably contributing a lot more $$ to the airport than the Irish are and its down to those flights that Shannon has been kept busy and alive over the last few years. Even when tourism numbers went down for economic, volcanic or terrorism reasons, those flights kept Shannon busy and people in jobs. yes we all object to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but the soldiers travelling through Shannon are unarmed, they don't leave the airport and they have a short pitstop for refuelling. Without it Shannon and the other American flights by Continental/United and Delta might not be there. I don't agree with the wars but i dont blame the young soldiers travelling for it. I've often given them whatever Euros I have in my pocket coming back to DC so they can get a good cup of Irish tea or coffee or a bar of chocolate. They're earned it and Shannon needs them to survive! I object to the protestors here and there doing any damage to any planes regardless of the passengers they carry. it serves no value to anyone. Protest quietly but don't disrupt the rest of us getting to our destinations!

• CaptainCon | Nov 21, 2011, 02:54 PM EST

  Viet Nam was fought on the basis of stopping communism 'over there', however insane that reasoning was. The reason American rendition flights were going through Shannon was to deliver prisoners without trial for forture outside the US justice system. What exactly were the Viet Nam generation fighting for? The soldiers in Viet Nam were not fighting for a regime that could operate such a system nor were the US soldiers who fought in WWII fighting so that the United States could turn into a Nazi state. I see no reason why a country which helped build the United States that those soldiers in WWII and Viet Nam thought they were fighting for could surrender every principle those soldiers were told they were fighting and dying for. You have US police batoning three tour US marines- for what? To protect bloody Wall Street and Fox News Corporation. The way the United States is currently run without any shred of principle is a slap in the face to te war dead of Viet Nam and of WWII and WWI. The United States has been stolen by tax dodging corporations. Ireland should not have any hand or part in that.

• Scrivner | Nov 21, 2011, 01:14 PM EST

  Viet Nam--our generation's defining moment. Let us remember that when American forces abandoned South Viet Nam (due to polical presure at home), over 2 million Vietnamese had to flee--thru jungles and in unsafe boats on hostile seas. Many who stayed were rounded up into concentration ("reeducation") camps. These events were postponed for many years by American soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen who did not "refuse orders."

• Opoets99 | Nov 21, 2011, 11:16 AM EST

  Shame on you...

• seagreen | Nov 21, 2011, 10:41 AM EST

  This is why Vietnamn vets do not have reunions. Many think what happened was Ok. Othere like myself will hate Robert McNamara and his cronies to the grave for the 59,000 lives he extinguished.

• joycean | Nov 21, 2011, 10:41 AM EST

  Gerry Condon says he was in the US Army but refused orders to Vietnam. I thought refusing orders was a courtmarshal offense. He should have been sent to Leavenworth. There are military airports in England, Spain, and Germany where most military flights land and take-off. I'm sure the military would rather not use Shannon unless necessary for some reason.

• CaptainCon | Nov 21, 2011, 10:34 AM EST

  Unarmed troops transiting is one thing and it is debatable whether even that should be allowed considering Ireland is constitutionally neutral and not a member of NATO. What concerns more are the 'truth, justice and the American way' flights taking innocent people to be tortured in secret camps in eastern Europe.

• joan1954 | Nov 21, 2011, 10:22 AM EST

  American military flights into Shannon has kept that airport alive when the Irish state has all but abandoned it in favor of Dublin, a city I do not care much about. The troops had no weaponry on them, they bought a few items, proably drank their first (or last) beer for a while. Come on there is no such thing as neutrality any more. If Ireland becomes active in an EU rapid reaction force even serving as non-combatants neutrality ceases to exist. When I left Ireland last summer and saw my country's brave soldiers, I thanked them for their service albeit on foreign soil. They never know the day or the hour For those who keep criticizing, think on this point; what would it be for Ireland if my government called every American comany operating in Ireland to return home - talk about a domino effect and things would be worse than they are?

• hooligan6a | Nov 21, 2011, 10:07 AM EST

  I am a Vietnam vet. Do you think it is safe for me to visit Ireland? I don't know, with all these protesters, I may be better off gong to Syria or Libya. Maybe they won't go there and protest for peace. Or maybe I should go to China or Russia, I just don't see them going there to protest. Why is it that these heros only protest in places like the US and Ireland?

• seagreen | Nov 21, 2011, 09:39 AM EST

  It was very strange for me to be sitting In Shannon Airport a few years ago, and to be surrounded by American soldiers in transit. To them, I'm sure I was just some older guy with longer hair. I did not speak, but the thoughts of being at Ton Son Nhut in Saigon so many years ago was discomforting to me in the sense that it is happening all over again. I thoughtof saying something, but decided that I would have made as little sense to them as some older guy would have made to me in Saigon years ago ! I did hope that they would all return home safe, but in my mind I was also reminded of the people sending them through Shannon. They are the decendents of the ones that sent us through Saigon. Nothing has changed ! So I support the demonstrators in Shannon, mainly because the so called radical and crazies that protested, and helped bring an end to the war, were in retrospect the ones that saved thousands of lives, regardless of your viewpoint..

• CaptainCon | Nov 21, 2011, 09:09 AM EST

  We should turn Shannon and the western deepsea ports over to the Russians and/or Chinese, leaving them a nice exit into the Atlantic. If the US government doesn't like it tell them to telephone Tim Geithner who blocked a haircut for bank debtholders. Why give the Americans something for free when we could have supply contracts and ancillary employment from a large Russian/Chinese base instead? No offence, US, but money talks and rendition bullshit walks.