American case echoes Savita story as Bishop strips hospital of Catholic affiliation

BigDaddy, aside from RC, mega-churches and media churches, how many Christian churches are structured hierarchically? One of the founders of the American republic, who helped write the US Constitution and vigorously defended separation of church and state, also wrote the Constitution of the Episcopal Church of the US--an enduring testament to the compatibility of reason, faith, and political progress. Even beset by all the chaos that attends reform efforts, the Anglican Communion cannot decide any issue authoritatively. It's bound by absolute democratic decision procedures, so progress happens slowly, but it happens. Bureaucratization, hierarchy, and power-tripping are not inherent, not as long as Christians, following the Gospel, insist on keeping the apostolic fishing boat in good repair (ecclesia semper reformandum). Perhaps I am optimistic because I know women priests who, together with laity, saved their churches, which had strayed down the paths of sex abuse, financial abuse, and authoritarian-political manipulation of the faithful. The demise of the church era is not inevitable. Although many other Christian action groups are competing with-- or reshaping-- the churches, their source of strength and community-- the liturgy --is not to be found outside the churches.

eiriamach...Over the last 30 years, I have felt as you do maybe even believed as you do. However, in my experience, the problems facing the RCC are the same ones that will eventually face ALL churches that grow in size to the point where they must be managed by a hierarchy to make sure the "corporation" doesn't stray from its intended purpose. Such things are rarely, if ever, left to the Holy Spirit. They are usually left to men who make political decisions about where the church goes. That is how men operate because that is how men have always operated. I do not condemn them for being human; I condemn them for pretending to be "spirit led" while being all too human in their dealings.

BigDaddy, I don't question your take on Roman Church history. But when I write of Christians, I don't have in mind the corporate Vatican with its global outposts, like the USCCB. I have in mind people who try to bring the Gospel into their mundane work and relationships, rather than desperately seeking authority figures in clerical garb to tell them how to live. Where such people gather, churches contribute to progress. ~~~~~ jacers, we don't yet know enough about "nature" to know whether an event is a miracle, or "super" natural. It's a huge leap from "We can't explain this event with our knowledge of natural science" to "Therefore, this event has a super-natural cause." Accordingly, Jesus did not offer the 'miracles' reported in the Gospels as 'proofs' of his divinity or of the existence of God. He offered them as examples of the power of faith in action. As Buber wrote, it's not that, when we have faith, we possess the power of God, but the power of God possesses us, and we accomplish work that earlier generations only dreamed of or began but could not complete. Faith enables progress and gives meaning to it. As in the curing of the Centurion's servant: “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would” (Matt 8:13).

jacers...If the subject scares you, you need not posit the blame on me. You obviously cannot defend your point of view. I must say I do object to the mealy mouthed manner in which you avoid addressing the facts I put forth from the Bible. I waited and hoped that you might have something positive to offer but I was wrong. I accept that your "proofs" exist as empirical evidence in your mind as does the existence of your vision of a god-head. I was willing to discuss any subject with you but you are not brave enough to discuss the "inspired word of your god". I am not surprised because most people who are brainwashed react to facts as you do. They try to diminish the truth because they cannot accept reality as it exists; they are only comfortable with delusions because they feel safer hiding from the real world. Please do not address me again as I may not be able to restrain myself from telling you what I really think of you. Thanks in advance.....BD

Thomas Jefferson presient of the U.S ofA and woo's sliding off on a tangent. In your case it's a slippery slope.

Sorry BigDaddy, I think you’re going off on a tangent w/ yr latest comments (typical of those who won’t face up to truths fired at them) and I’m not going to pursue your thoughts in that respect. Introducing ‘mind-control’ and ‘communistic’ stuff is, imho, rubbish. It’s about faith and beliefs in an entity which we call ‘God’, based on empirical evidence e.g. miracles which are mind-boggling proofs, not mind control. >>> @seano, sorry but I’ve no idea who the ‘Jefferson’ you refer to was/is… Anyway, Jefferson, whoever he/she is, as a human being, is entitled to his/her opinion, as I am mine. >>> I don’t think we’re all going to find common ground here, so let’s drop it… The subjects seano and BigDaddy introduce might be better discussed under the “How Catholic are You?” topic. The simpler you keep a problem, the less chance there is of losing sight of resolving it. Anyway, sliding off on a tangent risks belittling the main topic of this article. Slán libh go fóill.

eiriamach...I would agree with you that when Christians, as a group, gather in the spirit, what you find is counter to the prevailing status quo. But after Nicaea and the codification of "Christian beliefs" the church became more a corporation that a church. It worried more about its social standing than about continuing Christ's true teachings. The very rich and societal elites weren't going to abandon their wealth, privilege and lavish lifestyles so the church accommodated their needs and people who spoke out against this were killed. And if the word communist scares you, don't use it. Capitalists have made the word anathema much like they have made the word liberal because they need to have people believe these are terrible ideas. But, given the union of church and businesses today, it should come as no surprise that mind control is at the core of the success of both enterprises. How else can someone make people believe that Christ's teachings (love, charity) and their opposite (greed, self-interest) are compatible?

I suppose Big Daddy can call the early Christian Church "communist" with historical justification. Unfortunately, since the Cold War era, the word "communist" has been synonymous in American minds with "atheist," so I prefer to consider the early Christians "collectivist." Their mission was (and still is) global in scope. Early ministers-- male and female-- lived simply and shared all they had (most importantly the 'Good News') with others, according to Jesus' teachings. "Collectivist" contrasts with "individual" and "individualistic," i.e., the American mythos and ideology. I think American Christians are rediscovering their collectivist roots. As a result of the recent political campaign, people are awakening to the need for collective action--groups of people working together for social progress. That's why I think a "church" approach is indispensable for Christians. But I differ from Big Daddy about mind control. When that group spirit enters, the mindset is most often counter-cultural and anti-ideological.

Maybe jacer would like to ponder on why Jefferson did not believe Jesus was the son of God,but a man with a philosophy

jacers...Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? The Tripartite godhead being of one mind and all is something you should believe in, correct? Well, the church inspired by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was a communistic enterprise according to the Acts of the Apostles and that makes Jesus a communist. Over the next several hundred years, the teachings of Christ and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was cast aside and those who tried to speak out against the abandonment of these teachings were called heretics and killed. Does this not qualify as trying to control the mindset of the faithful followers? Take your time and I'll check in from time to time.....BD

jacers...I believe your first request was that I prove that all religions practice mind control. I would think that would be a given but if you need to to explain I will try. How else can religions, governments, cults, abusive spouses, the military exert authority without first attempting to control what their subjects think? Now you may think it unfair to lump all these groups together but they all have a commonality that needs to be recognized. At one time, or in one way, or another, they all need to control the thinking of others to gain their co-operation. Whether the government is capitalistic, totalitarian, or theocratic, they must make the people under them believe they have no recourse or they will suffer severe sanctions. Whether imprisonment, death or excommunication, you are made to conform through mind control. Can you agree with that assessment or need I expound further?

jacers...it is not possible for me to answer you in depth tonight as I am on the road. I will answer you after I consider your proofs for a bit. That is only fair I believe. btw I was an altar boy for 4 years and I had considered entering the priesthood in my youth. As an adult, I was a member of the Holy Name Society in my local parish, a lector and spoke to local high school students about the benefits of attending retreats. I have also had the pleasure of directing dozens of students in our parish elementary school in a live version of the Stations of the Cross. I believe we will understand one another better if we do not assume things. See you soon.....BD

I'm shocked to see Jacers writing about "all empirical proofs" of God's existence. I thought Jacers was a man of faith. Where there's empirical proof, there's no need for faith. In fact, it's just silly to entertain beliefs when we have for-sure knowledge or "proof." It's also sad to see the spiritual dimension of human life reduced here to empiricism. It's easy enough to learn science if that's where you think you'll find God. The spiritual dimension of human life, however, calls for something different, including faith, I believe.

Jacer!! as long as your happy with your beliefs .Fine!! but do not push your beliefs down my throta as "fact" when in fact it is not a "fact" Btw I have read many books on Fatima and lourdes and many yaers ago saw the stage production of 'Bernadette" by John Wainwright(Dublin). How do you explain people recovering from illness's when given a placebo?? Lourdes and Fatima were a mass hysteria outbreak.

(…more) Hope you enjoy the fascinating research! Keep in mind that undeclared miracles happen to everyday Christians, not necessarily of the physical healing kind but also of events in ordinary day life: as New Advent explains “… God, in answer to prayer, confers not only spiritual favours but at times interferes with the ordinary course of physical phenomena, so that, as a result, particular events happen otherwise than they should”. One more thing: there is a prayer out there that goes “My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love Thee! I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee!” It’s not mine and I never say it as part of daily prayers but I’d agree with its sentiments apart from the “white knight” righteous tone! May God (the Biggest Daddy of all) go with you and Seano and other non-believers… and may He find you if you’re lost, as does a shepherd find his precious lost lambs, like me. Christmas is coming… #Hark now... Listen to what they say. #