39 Comments

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 17, 2012, 05:04 AM EDT

  Of course it goes without saying that if the chums of Casement, and later Sean Russell, had succeeded, old Knee would need to be very, very careful before posting the kind of rubbish he does…a truth ignored by the parochial, narrow-minded, so-called ‘patriots’ who could not, and still cannot, see the bigger picture of 20th century world history…unlike Ireland’s gallant soldiers in both world wars…ps as the US was involved as well…aiding the enemy was acting against your countries interest…

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 17, 2012, 04:01 AM EDT

  Those who say that Irish soldiers of WW1 died for nothing completely misread 20th century history. Both world wars were part of the same long-running conflict, fought to ‘tame’ the belligerency of the German Reich. All the allied soldiers, including the Irish, contributed to that final victory… others sat on the sidelines…or worse…happy to accept the hard won security and freedom…unable or unwilling to acknowledge the Irish contribution…they have their own parochial reasons for ignoring the obvious, and dishonouring their memory

• Bythebay | Jun 16, 2012, 03:50 PM EDT

  DeValera's refusal to join the Allies and stop Hitler's menace in WWII was not supported by many in Ireland including members of th Irish Defense Forces. Ireland was bombed in WWII. Northen Ireland was bombed in WWII. Many who were in the Irish Defense Forces were NOT about to stand by and watch he Axis Powers win and the Allies fall. They were heroes.

• Bythebay | Jun 16, 2012, 03:47 PM EDT

  Very obvious bias by those primarily in the US doesn't reflect the truth of those periods of Irish histoy. The Rebellion of 1916 was NOT suported by the Irish people. Support was for joining the British Army, supporting the Empire and stopping the threats to the world in WWI by supporting the Allies.

• WoundedKnee | Jun 16, 2012, 03:03 PM EDT

  The great patriot and humanitarian Roger Casement provides a link between the depravities of the Belgian colonialists and the misery of the Irish peasantry. According to an online article by a Peter Harris, of the University of Sao Paolo (that's in Brazil, TomSwinford) Casement ‘witnessed physical resemblances to the Putumayo in Connemara, where starvation and squalor caused an outbreak of typhus. The fate of the indigenous people that he had seen in Peru and that of the Irish peasants seemed to him to be so similar that he described the region as the ‘Irish Putumayo’ and wrote that ‘The “white Indians” of Ireland are heavier on my heart than all the Indians of the rest of the earth.’ Of course TomSwinford has probably never heard of Casement and OLoingsigh undoubtedly thinks that Casement was a traitor to His Majesty the King of England and Ireland. One Casement was worth ten thousand reactionary old pharts such as Swinford and Lynch.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 16, 2012, 01:06 PM EDT

  Woundedknee berates Belgium, while conveniently ignoring the Genocide inflicted on the Herero and Namaqua peoples in German South West Africa…and the allied soldiers of WW1 DID NOT die for nothing, if they had not fought, old Knee would be posting his rubbish in German…

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 16, 2012, 01:03 PM EDT

  To say the allied soldiers of WW1, including many Irishmen, died for nothing is to misread history. Both World wars were part of the same long-running conflict, fought to ‘tame’ the belligerency of the German Reichs, and the democracies ultimately triumphed…in each war Germany invaded France, and began the killing of ‘people who never did harm to them’. So all the allied soldiers in each war contributed to the final victory, while others sat on the sidelines, or worse, happy to accept the hard won security and freedom, but unable or unwilling to acknowledge the Irish contribution, for their own pathetic, parochial reasons…

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 16, 2012, 11:47 AM EDT

  WoundedKnee aka GeorgeDillon, you display an astonishing inability to understand plain English - or perhaps you interpret the written word to suit your purpose. I did not say or imply that Ireland in 1916 was a land of milk and honey. I was speaking in relative terms and stand by my statement that it was arguably more prosperous than it had ever been, in part prospering because of the war in Europe. Your ludicrous comment that there was some support for the rebellion - from the rebels themselves - speaks for itself.

• WoundedKnee | Jun 16, 2012, 02:44 AM EDT

  "The Irish who died in WW1 died for nothing, and went off to kill people who never did harm to them or to Ireland". That's well put, ancavker. And remember that one of the big propaganda points put forward by the British and their Irish stooges, lay and clerical, was the need to defend "plucky little Belgium", This was the same Belgium that just a decade previously had been found guilty of unspeakable cruelties and horrors in its colonialist administration of the Congo! Any Irishman who sought to defend Belgium was complicit in its crimes against humanity.

• WoundedKnee | Jun 16, 2012, 02:36 AM EDT

  "a return to the kind of poverty not seen in generations" This guy TomSwinford really knows no Irish history. His invocation of a Golden Age of prosperity in pre-1916 Ireland is ignorant bunk. Two examples: The slightest effort at research will show what terrible conditions the Dublin working-class were living in in 1913, the time of the Lock-Out (I guess this guy would have been a big supporter of William Martin Murphy). Out in the country, things were so bad with starvation in Connemara that around 1910 there was an international collection taken to feed the hungry there. There were even contributions made as far as away as Argentina and Australia. Some Golden Age!

• WoundedKnee | Jun 16, 2012, 02:30 AM EDT

  TomSwinford;;;"no one wanted a rebellion". Not even the people who organized a Rebellion? That's a senseless claim on your part.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 15, 2012, 06:32 PM EDT

  ancavker – You dispute Tom’s plausible motivation for some WW2 fighters, yet claim to know the motivation for some others in WW1…how so?

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 15, 2012, 06:10 PM EDT

  ancavker, I believe I have addressed your comment in my response to IrelandNorth. As for our psuedo heroes of 1916, they were, in the words of one Irish historian," a clique within a clique, within a clique." They had little support within the other two cliques and none at all within the country at large. Their doomed uprising killed hundreds of innocent civilians and destroyed central Dublin. In 1916 Ireland was arguably more prosperous than it had ever been in its long history, the economy was booming. For the first time everyone was benefitting and no one wanted a rebellion. Yes, the Uprising eventually led to independence for most of the country but the price was horrendous, a downward spiraling economy, a return to the kind of poverty not seen in generations, a long succession of corrupt and incompetent governments. Following the illusion of the Celtic Tiger, Ireland is again on the ropes. And in Ireland there is talk of rejoining the British Commonwealth and establishing closer-still economic relations with this, our nearest neighbor and, by far, our most important trading partner.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 15, 2012, 05:38 PM EDT

  Clevelander – Even Dev drew the line at executing his fellow countrymen for ‘the crime’ of fighting Hitler. Men who fought shoulder to shoulder with the allies in defeating the monstrous Nazi regime. You seem to be a little short on Christian mercy, so it’s a little trite to call on God’s blessing and the killing of Irish freedom fighters at the same time…

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 15, 2012, 05:34 PM EDT

  IrelandNorth, with respect, I believe most of us are aware of the gravity of desertion, especially in wartime - but Ireland was not at war. For better or worse, Dev chose to sit out the greatest 'good fight' in human history. And the "deserters" were not running from the battlefield, they were running to it, in large measure, consciously or not, to redeem the honor of their country. This is akin to the patient saying to the doctor, I know that you helped save my life but you violated the rules of medical practice in doing so, so I must punish you, I must blame you and shame you, marginalize you and ostracize you. Why? Because you had the courage to break the rules and do the right thing. To say that these brave men had other motives is both small and ungenerous. I look to their actions which I can see, not what was in their hearts and minds - which I cannot see. I have served in the armies of two countries. I know what it is like to make choices between life and death at the ripe old age of 20 and 21. Be generous.

• Bythebay | Jun 15, 2012, 04:37 PM EDT

  ancavker, your lack of knowledge of why these men fought again shows your ignorance of Ireland and Irish history. Your attempts to demean them are futile.

• Bythebay | Jun 15, 2012, 04:09 PM EDT

  ancavker, you in the US know nothing about Irish history. Those tens of thousands who died in WWI fought in the war to end all wars and protect and defend Ireland and the rest of Europe. They are now finally being celebrated after the likes of you villified them for decades. Partition was because of the weakness and ineptitude of Michael Collins.

• ancavker | Jun 15, 2012, 03:32 PM EDT

  bythebore: Back to the history books son. The Irish who died in WW1 died for nothing, and went off to kill people who never did harm to them or to Ireland. Some went off because they believed that if they killed themselves, England might throw them the crumbs of home rule. Partition was the result of England not standing up to the threats of the unionists. And had they honored the boundary commission, partition probably would have ended years ago. back to the books boy.

• Bythebay | Jun 15, 2012, 03:20 PM EDT

  clevelander, and how many deserters were shot in the US? Those who fought in WWI and WWII fought for Irish freedom and succeeded. Ireland ows them a huge debt of gratitude which they're finally reaping.

• Bythebay | Jun 15, 2012, 03:09 PM EDT

  ancavker, tens of thousands of Irishmen died on the battlefields of Europe and elsewhere in WWI in the war to end all wars. They were villified by a small band of self-proclaimed insurgents who refused to protect the country and who had no support from the Irish people for their ill fated insurrection which resulted in the partition of the country which caused thousands of deaths and billions of damage and destruction.

• Bythebay | Jun 15, 2012, 02:46 PM EDT

  This stigma should be removed. These soldiers wanted to protect Ireland and the rest of Europe from Hitler's menace and should have been praised for it. Of course DeValera in his anti-Britishness would have let Ireland fall to Hitler rather than do the right thing and join the Allies to fight him.

• Bythebay | Jun 15, 2012, 02:44 PM EDT

  TheWildGeese, the real Wild Geese were emigrants from Ireland who served as mercenaries in the armies of Europe.

• ancavker | Jun 15, 2012, 12:11 PM EDT

  And while the Irish government is apologizing, perhaps they can apologize to the families of all the men and women who gave up their lives from 1916 through 1922, in an attempt to establish Irish independence and build a new Ireland, only to have the revisionists and successive Irish governments either ignore them, or vilify them as gun men, criminals, or hopeless zealots.

• ancavker | Jun 15, 2012, 12:08 PM EDT

  Tom: You have no idea as to why these men fought, or that they had a notion about protecting Ireland from Hitler and all of the rest.

• clevelander | Jun 15, 2012, 09:09 AM EDT

  @DanOLoingsigh Please keep up. I never said these men would have been shot. I said in my opinion they should have been shot. God Bless ALL those who fought for Irish Freedom.

• IrelandNorth | Jun 15, 2012, 08:40 AM EDT

  A more accurate headline would read: "Irish Government decriminalises desertion!" Motivation was often less altruistic, such as better pay and conditions, more adventure etc. Absence-with-out-leave (AWOL) and desertion differ in frequency and duration, a point unappreciated by Jewish-Irish Minister for Defence due to the emotivinessof the Holocaust. They fought for the British Army rather than Allies. Desertion is breach of contract, disrupting pay and pension rights. Desertion is desertion, even if to assist Mother Theresa's Sisters of Charity in Calcutta. Military Law anywhere doesnt allow for "leaving" or "returning" willy nilly. Most articles written about this in the Irish press and media are ill-informed and written by journalists illiterate about military matters. It's also a set piece in a revisionist agenda which seeks a restoration of the UK in the rest of Ireland, and the criminalisation of Irish nationalism/republicanism.

• citizen69 | Jun 14, 2012, 03:48 PM EDT

  These deserters certainly had more moral fibre than those in the IRA, who were allied with the Nazis. They were the real traitors who conspired to accommodate a Nazi conquest of Britain & Ireland. Yet IRA members who were interned in Ireland during the war were allowed, upon release, to apply for public sector jobs and receive welfare while returning Irish soldiers who fought with the allies were not. The IRA even went as far as threatening to attack American servicemen who were stationed in Northern Ireland.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 14, 2012, 02:23 PM EDT

  Keep up Mr Knee...I was responding to another poster who said they should have been jailed or shot...I NEVER SAID any Irish soldier was EVER executed, so it’s yourself who needs to get your facts straight...this punishment WAS NOT for desertion, but for joining Devs nemesis, the British Armed forces, and was enforced by specific legislation, not a military court...the fact that they were helping to liberate Europe from the Nazis somehow seems to have escaped Dev and his small-minded cronies.

• WoundedKnee | Jun 14, 2012, 12:48 PM EDT

  Thewildgeese: "Not providing a mechanism for serving in the war is where the government did these deserters wrong!" Let me get this straight. You think that governments should make their foreign policy based on what their soldiers want? More accurately, on what a minority of their soldiers want, since the great majority of Irish soldiers were faithful to their oath and stood by their posts. You never heard of civilian control of the military? Weird.

• WoundedKnee | Jun 14, 2012, 12:43 PM EDT

  It would be interesting to know how the US or British military dealt with soldiers who deserted to fight in the Spanish Civil War. That was a noble cause, but I bet any guys who deserted to fight in Spain didn't get a hero's welcome when they came home. And speaking of Spain, how many of the soldiers who deserted the Irish Army had previously deserted in order to go to Spain and fight Fascism? I'll chance a guess--ZERO. The Spanish Republic wasn't exactly a top payer, and the chances of getting killed were pretty high for anyone in the International Brigades. So the desire of the Irish deserters to fight Fascism only manifested itself when the pay was right and survival chances were good.

• TheWildGeese | Jun 14, 2012, 12:17 PM EDT

  I think these men deserved due process, and perhaps a process allowing them to apply to serve in a foreign army, ideally the U.S. Army, on a case-by-case basis. But no army can allow those in the ranks to simply abandon their posts, ignoring their oath of service, even for what may eventually be seen as a noble cause. Not providing a mechanism for serving in the war is where the government did these deserters wrong!

• WoundedKnee | Jun 14, 2012, 10:19 AM EDT

  TomSwinford: If you're such a big fan of desertion, how come you didn't desert the US Army when they were committing atrocities such as My Lai?

• WoundedKnee | Jun 14, 2012, 10:15 AM EDT

  DanOLoingsigh: You are really uninformed. NO soldier who deserted the Irish Army EVER was executed. So your comparison with the US Armed Forces is senseless. Though quite a few US soldiers were sentenced to death for desertion. NO Irish soldier who deserted was ever sentenced to death. Get your facts straight. You sound like a real war lover, but I bet you were, like the other chickenhawk Dick Cheney, "too busy" to join the military.

• WoundedKnee | Jun 14, 2012, 10:06 AM EDT

  This apology is long, long overdue. These men who "deserted" the Irish Army with a 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink' from Dev, had the wisdom and courage to look beyond old hatreds and see clearly the mortal threat of Hitler and the most monstrous evil in world history. The great irony here is that these men - and many other Irishmen - who had not been in the Irish Army - wearing British uniforms, fought for Ireland's survival every bit as much as for England's. If Britain had been defeated Ireland would have been promptly occupied and enslaved - Hitler regarded the Irish as he did the Slavs, fit only for the plough. If we think that our Nazi overlords would have been kinder than John Bull we are way beyond stupid.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jun 14, 2012, 09:20 AM EDT

  Clevelander is quite wrong to suggest these men would have been shot if in any other army. Only ONE American GI was shot for desertion since the Civil War era,… and at the time the US were engaged in a WORLD WAR, not looking on from the sidelines…there were an estimated hundred thousand or so GI deserters.

• ballyhip | Jun 13, 2012, 08:15 PM EDT

  Many Irish joined the British Army in WW2 for the reason that still appeals to the young. It is an escape from village life and a chance for adventure. By the way, I served in the American military. These 4,500 hundred were probably motivated by the same factors. Irish "neutrality" was a strange beast which we are still discovering. Imagine a world leader sending a condolence note to the family of Bin Laden as De Valera did to Hitler's family?

• clevelander | Jun 13, 2012, 05:34 PM EDT

  An apology? They should have been Jailed if not Shot for desertion. Disgusting. Only we Irish would do this.

• Bythebay | Jun 13, 2012, 02:34 PM EDT

  This legislation might be introduced but who knows if it will ever be passed.

• Bythebay | Jun 13, 2012, 02:32 PM EDT

  GeorgeDillon, yes indeed compared to the US Ireland has NOT: 8.5 million people hungry every day, waged an illegal war, lied to the UN, overthrown governments, invaded countries, flagrantly violated the Geneva Convention, murdered tens of thousands of innocent civilians, maimed tens of thousands of innocent civilians, denied rights to its citizens. Anyone in Ireland can travel to any country of the world and be welcomed not reviled as the US is. Yes, indeed, we are not like the US. You are the failed nation.