Ireland's papal nuncio calls for ‘authentic’ Catholicism for the future

Más maith leis Caitleachas fíréanta, ba chóir dúinn dul ar ais go dtí an 6ú haois le sagairt agus mná rialta pósta más maith leo agus ban-easpaig mar Bhrighid taobh ar thaobh le fear-easpaig. Bhí eaglais iontach againn sna laethanta sin, ag fás agus ag obair ar son na ndaoine. /// If he wants 'authentic Catholicism', we should go back to the 6th century with priests and nuns married if they want and female bishops like Brighid side by side with male bishops. We had a wonderful church in those days, growing and working for the good of the people.

jack112229: In your comment you use the term "Christ=like" in your first and last sentences -withour defining the term. I'm reminded of the navy chaplains saying the "Lord's Prayer" at 'lights out' every night while on a cruise of the Mediterranean Sea with the 6th Fleet in the early '60s. Since it was Jesus Chrish who composed that prayer, do you consider these military chaplains Christ-like for having said it on a daily bases, or were they lacking political correctness by serving in our nation's defense forces?

Granted, the "little details" are not known by all (Golitsyn apparently had an insight on the transitions of political systems - and the preference of domestic societies - and their past corrections) and the resultant insight (Golitsyn, the little details of the past, or otherwise) can not be brought to the exchange of ideas (or lives and fortunes)without the experience of those pardonable little details. The Communists long range plan notwithstanding - whatever it is - "authentic" American Catholicism has winked at the little detail of Birth Control for decades. And, on the matter, of future corrections - Dubceks and Romanias aside - who owns this issue? A/B Brown feels (as many) "authentic" is important. Pardon me for asking, but would it be a "big" admission, in the spirit of "authenticity" (on the part of the hierarchy, the clerical, the academics,the political leadership, the laity), to acknowledge it?

Dean, checklist clairvoyance can be attributed each week, after Fantasy Football results are tallied. This is not to say Russia is not a World Power, and the Russian Church is a concern for the Vatican, in its new search for "authentic" Catholicism somewhere - Russia, Africa, the sub-continent - but certainly not in Birth Control America, or the confiscated lands of the Fitzgeralds. Catholic families of "authentic" faith are all over America, but my point is the demographics of American society and the Church's conservative intransigence, is against them in the long haul. No one quarrels with "authentic" Catholic, Christian, faith. An "authentic" Catholic Church, as an institution, is another thing. If the Red Star on once Soviet weapons systems is a concern of symbolic collusion (beyond coalitions and fragmentation in the distribution and consolidation of power,) then I suggest you attend the "Small Navies" Conference, to be held in Maynooth in October, and solicit the opinions of European naval academics, naval and other service officers in attendance. The Shannon, and the Blackwater, and the Lee, and, yes, the Boyne, like all rivers, flow to the sea.

Dean, take a chill pill, and, for a good read on the perils of facile interpretation, try Seamus Deane's "Reading in the Dark."

DeanJackson, it's time to put a lid on your conspiracy theories and deal with the real issues at hand, such as those raised by the papal nuncio's comments. You've "clued us in" only to your fanatical, fearful retreat from the problems of clerical molestation of children, church interference in the laws of the state, and abuses of ecclesiastical power. Ireland will continue a nation of throw-away children and oppressed women as long as men like you continue to run away from, and distract discussion away from, the personal responsibility of priests and bishops for obstructing justice and suppressing human rights. You're trying to resurrect the ghost of Senator Joe McCarthy to find a scapegoat for the problem. It won't wash; the problems are not of "foreign" origin. They are as Catholic as any pope! No, it isn't communists conspiring against the Church; yes, it is pedophiles in the ranks of clergy, along with their justice-obstructing protectors. Try to break free from your conspiracy fantasies and confront facts instead.

jacersagain, great affirmation, yet I would suggest Christ was not expressing His commitment to the institutional bureaucracy His Church has become (due,to some extent,to the success of the apostolic sharing of the gospel) as much as His presence as expressed in "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.(Matthew,18:20, in both King James and The American Standard)...The Catholic Church in America has already, regrettable though it is, imploded. It imploded with "Humanae Vitae" and, if you doubt it, count the feet of the faithful and religious who have voted with them since. This was long before we became a global village. Yes, there is a hard core, conforming faithful, but many, many, have found it necessary to seek their own reconciliation with the gospel outside the Church, or exist on its margins, since it prides itself on its intransigence. In a consolidation in a stronger Church you see a different future than I would see. Not all pessimism though. Perhaps, in the genuine Spirit of Vatican II, the future will prove a resurgence of worship where "...two or three gather in (His)name..."

cas-MBA, firstly I think you’re forgetting that Christ said he would be with his Church until the end of time, so no implosion is going to happen. Secondly, the RCC, Anglican Church, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic and other Christian Churches are constantly working towards re-unification (It is Pope Benedict’s big drive thing), so the Christian population is going to explode, not implode, when unification eventually is achieved. It may not be as the RCC but probably an agreed re-named united Christian Church.

mairint... Did you know the North American superior of the Institute of Christ the King, Rev. Timothy Svea was sentenced to 18-months in jail for tying a 16-year-old boy to his bedpost. These abuses occurred after the death of the boy's mother. Abuse has occurred in the (Latin-rite) traditional communities as well.

Err, finite ('population')is the intended phrase

Stepping away from "simulated" Soviet Union breakup in 1991 and the Vatican theories,has anyone run the numbers on a finite (given the attrition rate of Mass attendance) on how many generations (given the current divorce rates among Catholics in Western societies) it will require before the laity will reach some critical implosion point of less than authentic, intact marital offspring? Just askin' :I

The writers prior to this sound like a Dan Brown stew!! They want us in a time warp back before the printing press and mobile phones. Good grief!! The Papal Nuncio to Ireland, Archbishop Brown, looks a fine young man and certainly says it how it is. Where Authentic Catholicism (who wants anything else?)is being practiced, the numbers are growing, mostly young people who appreciate the Traditional Mass. The priests in the Trad. form are young, well educated and from all corners of the world. There is richness and deep meaning in the celebration of the Extraordinary form of Mass. Just see what will happen in Limerick when the old abandoned Jesuit church is taken over by the priests of Christ the King. In spite of the ripping out of anything of value for auction, and all the decay - it will be lovingly restored and the people of Limerick will turn up to volunteer their help. God Bless them all.

(…more) So I have to ask, as McN31 reminded me of the asking: why cannot Archbishop Brown, as our Papal Legate, go back to the Vatican State and ask its head honcho (oops, sorry for the toyful irreverence!) our Pope, as to why we cannot celebrate the Eucharist in our own homes without a priest present as happened in the earliest days of Christianity? We have Saturday or Sunday dinners or evening meals with our families and friends with bread and wine present on the table and every good married Christian wears a gold ring, the home is nicely perfumed as if ‘frankincensed’ or ‘myrrhed'. So why can’t we be allowed to be authentic Christians in our own homes and neighbourhoods, doing things in memory of our Christ, with not a priest in sight? I think A/B Brown and our Holy Father the Pope might find great comfort in allowing this practice daily or weekly in our Christian homes. I post this w/ tks to McN31 and his reminder of authentic early Christianity.

(…more) The earliest Christians followed the example of the Three Wise Men in giving gifts or presents of myrrh, frankincense and gold to the Infant Jesus and so built their community centres (churches) lavishly abundant with gold, frankincense and myrrh, which is why all Christian Churches (whether of Roman, Eastern or Russian Orthodox or Coptic Churches kinds) have at least two of these in every one of their churches. (So forget it, youze of you who demand that the Church sells off its “riches” to pay monetary compensation for the sins of a few; they are actually gifts or presents by ordinary people as in Bethlehem Stable birthday “presents” and cannot be removed from any Christian church anywhere except by stealing or agreeemnt to donate or pass on). These so-called “riches” are simple representations of the presents of the Wise Men from all Christian communities of men, women and children to our Almighty God, some preceding the establishment of Christianity in Rome through St. Peter’s presence and death in that city. These “riches” are always completely aside from the essence of ceremonies in every Christian Church - those of celebrating the Eucharist and those of sharing Eucharistic Adoration (but now with a ’minion’ present, a priest). So I have to ask… (more... and I’ll be probably castigated as a Protestant for the “more” sayings I next have …)

For a while I've meant to get back on to the good posts by McNamara31 earlier in this debate (acknowledging wrongly attributed posts). Aug 25th, 01.11pm, McN31 referred to early Christians and the celebration of the Eucharist in the family homes of the earliest Christians. He’s right about that, as I learned researching early Christianity from an old version of the Lion Book of the History of Christianity recording this practice. The head of a Christian family, the honcho, a married man or woman in his/her home, held the ceremony of doing “this” in memory of our Christ (not a priest in sight). Then there followed the practice of inviting one’s fellow-Christian friends and neighbours people to one's home to celebrate the Eucharist together (still not a priest in sight). Then there followed larger community gatherings to celebrate the Eucharist in a local “community hall” (yep, now here’s where a “bishop” appeared (really a ‘deacon’, as set by St. Paul) but still no priest in sight). Then there followed the building of basilicas in larger towns and cities (yep, you got it, Arch-Bishops appeared and still no priests in sight). (I stand to be corrected but I think the first big Christian basilica was built in present-day Turkey in the 2nd or 3rd Century AD). (More…)